Cheryl Schatz

It is another day and we will see how much we can get through today.

Mark,
You said:

You said “Faith in God and receiving Jesus comes before we become children of God.”
Really Cheryl, I don’t think Romans 8 says this

Romans 8 does not contradict this at all. If you think it does, please show me where it says that we are children of God before we receive Jesus.

Does the Bible say that those who received Him are given the right to become children of God?

John 1:12 (NASB)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Does the Bible say that we are sons of God through faith? Or are we sons of God without any regard to our faith?

Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now I ask you to show me one verse that says we are born again without faith. You have not done so and if you can please do. show it to me.

We were predestined to be conformed to Jesus image before we are justified according to these verses.

Sure. But we are not “born again” before have faith. That isn’t scriptural.

We were God’s children CHOSEN before the world was created according to Eph 1:4.

Sorry, but this isn’t true. We are not “God’s children” before the world was created. Before we came to faith we were enemies of God not children of God.

If only you realised Cheryl, that you were God’s chosen child before you even knew about Him.

I already realize that. The question is not what I was before I was born, but why. What was the condition that God foreknew me in Christ? We won’t be debating this because it goes off the topic of women in ministry, but know for sure that I agree with the Bible when the Bible plainly says something and when we need philosophy and human reasoning to give reason for things that God is silent on, I do not accept man’s reasoning.

It is true that John 1 says we become God’s child after we trust in Jesus. I believe that, but I also believe that bible clearly teaches that this was God’s plan for my life before the world was even created.

But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing whether you are born again before you have faith. And the Scriptural answer is “no”.

I’m interested to know how you pray for your unsaved friends Cheryl. Do you pray for God to open their eyes or to soften their hearts? Or do you not even ask God to help and just believe that their own free-will is good enough?

This shows a clear misunderstanding of the Sovereignty of God outside of Calvinism. You won’t find me saying that man is able to will himself as a Christian and doesn’t need God to draw Him. It is too bad that Calvinists think so little of our common Christian faith but seem to want to see other Christians as having a man centered gospel. It is a pity.

You see everyone believes in the sovereignty of God when they pray and ask God to intervene, even if you deny it when you speak to me.

Oh brother! Why on earth you keep saying that I deny the Sovereignty of God is beyond me. It is like I say one thing and you turn it around to say I am denying the very thing I am fighting for. I am really curious. Why do you do that?

Being ‘born-again’ is God opening their eyes to the message of the cross.

No it is not. Being born again is a miraculous work that transforms and renews and brings God’s life to a heart that was separated from God and lost in sin. It is opening of the eyes. It is a transformation.

We in sin are dead people according to Eph 2 therefore we need to be re-born and made alive, and like i said ealier, EPh 2 tells us that it is God who makes us alive not oursleves.

And like I said, of course it is God who makes us alive in Him and it is not ourselves at all. But is this miracle something that happens before faith? Not according to the Scriptures.

Being born again definitely comes before faith. It is the work of the spirit in unregenerate man so that he can accept the message of salvation.

You have said that before. Show me from the Scriptures that Cornelius became born again before he heard the message. And why would he need to hear the message if he was already born again?? He doesn’t need the message to be saved if he is already saved? Why is this reasoning so contradictory to the Scripture and never found explicitly in the Scriptures? I don’t accept it because I want Bible only not human reasoning.

Roman 14- I agree with the context, but the verse still says what it says. Everything not done in faith is sin, whether you’re a believer or unbeliever.

Show me where it says that everything that an unbeliever does that is not in faith is a sin? And how can an unbeliever do anything in faith? Wouldn’t that make him a believer? The context never mentions unbelievers so you just slip them in. Now show me a context that talks about unbelievers and how everything they do is sin even if it is a good work. Go ahead. I will wait patiently for your verses.

The reason being that everything is to be done for the glory of God. IF it is not done in faith in God how can it give glory to God, it simply can’t. I can’t see why you would deny this biblical verse.

You haven’t shown me a verse that includes unbelievers. And can you imagine Jesus saying to the Pharisees, that even though they are evil, they can do good, but they shouldn’t even try to do good, because any good they do is really just sinning more and more. So maybe Jesus would be telling these Pharisees to keep on sinning more and more because it is less offensive to God than if they are helpful and kind to their families. God just hates kind unbelievers, right?

Where does it say this in the bible? God demands that we follow him and no other, but I haven’t seen anywhere where the bible says we have the ‘freedom to seek God’.

God gives us two options and never just one. We can seek Him or we can reject Him.

1 Chronicles 28:9 (NASB)
9 “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

And Jesus promised that those who seek will find.

Matthew 7:7 (NASB)
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Now show me a verse that says that God will only allow some to seek Him and Him and most He will purposely stop them from seeking Him and purposely stop them from finding Him although He demands that they seek Him? Go ahead and show me where only some are enabled to seek God.

Aren’t we as fallen people living in the darkness, suppressing the truth, until God opens our eyes?

No. Romans 1:18 doesn’t say that all men suppress the truth. But the passage says that those who deliberately suppress the truth, God gives them up. Here is a description of them:

Romans 1:26–27 (NASB)
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Are you in this group? Were you given up to degrading passions and did you burn in your desire for other men? No? Then this passage is not about all people, but about those who purposely suppress the truth. I didn’t do that and likely you didn’t either.

I agree that faith is not a work, it is because it is a gift of God so that none can boast.

If faith is not a work, then man’s faith is not a work either.

If faith is something we do without God, then it is a work of ours because it doesn’t stem from God, therefore you have works based salvation.

You just contradicted yourself. You said that faith is not a work, then you said that our faith is a works based salvation. Either faith is a work or it is not.

Secondly we cannot have faith without God for we cannot even have faith in God without Him drawing us. I don’t know anyone who is teaching that faith exists independent of God working on us an drawing us to Himself. That is true faith. It is a response to God’s work. It is not a gift that God gives arbitrarily to a few. It is a response not a gift.

This is the problem with your view. You can’t skirt around the issue. You need to do better at convincing me that you are not promoting a works based salvation.

I am not skirting around the issue. I am answering every one of your questions. Before I take a stab at convincing you that I am not promoting a works based salvation, please show me from the Scripture where a man’s faith is a work. i.e. Abraham believed God is Abraham’s faith in God’s revelation. The text doesn’t say that God gave Abraham the gift of faith, but rather Abraham believed God’s word. Where is the accusation that Abraham was making this a works based faith?

The fact is that faith is the direct opposite of works. Every place it is mention in conjunction with works, it is in opposition to works except for the book of James where our works are necessary to show our faith to others. But our faith is never ever called a “work” to God.

Like I said Pelagianism (Augustine) and semi-pelagianism (reformers) were both condemned. How is your view not semi-pelagianism Cheryl?

Once again you are implying that I am a heretic and not a sister in Christ. Why do you do that?

I do not believe that works are required for salvation. In fact I believe that relying on works removes our faith. Our faith is the exact opposite works and not a single Scripture says that our faith is looked on by God as a work for salvation.

I am honestly tired of being called a heretic and then you trying to say that I am really a sister in Christ. You are confused at the seriousness of heresy.