Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

Why stop at verse 27 Cheryl…let’s keep going
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,…

Surely you and I have both coveted, surely we have both been slanderers and gossips and boastful etc. This is the nature of humanity not just one specific group.

This is not the nature of all humanity. The verses above say that they were “filled” with… The Greek term means to be filled up, completely full, come to completion.

Is this a description of Job? Was God a hater of God? God said that he was righteous and turned away from evil. Job was not one filled up with evil but one who turned away. The verses are a description of those who know the truth and turn away from it.

Romans 1:32 (NASB)
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

The context the passage proves that these are the haters of God and ones who will not turn to God. It is not a description of those who fear God. There are two kinds of humanity, not one. Job was a God fearer and there are many more like him.

I can’t show you that Cornelius was born again- I don’t deny that. But not every conversion in the bible says ‘and they were born again before they believed’. We don’t always have every detail for every occasion.

I am glad that you admit the failure of Scripture to show even one case where a person was “born again” before they came to faith. Cornelius would have been an excellent case since he was one who feared God. He was one of those who belonged to the Father and the Father promised those who fear Him, that He would bring them to the covenant. This is fulfilled in Jesus. Cornelius had a vision that prompted him to ask for Peter to come because Cornelius was not a God hater, but one who belonged to the Father as a God fearing man.

The problem is though to say that we don’t need to be born again contradicts Jn 3, and contradictions are not acceptable.

We need to be born again because even fearing God is not good enough. We have to have a miracle that removes our sin and makes us clean. It is the new birth that washes us clean.

You have swept it away be changing what born again means and what the kingdom is.

I haven’t changed what born again means as I have used the Scriptures to define it for itself. There is no Scripture that says that being “born again” is merely a dead man coming to life but without eternal life within him. Born again means a washing away of our sin through the miracle of regeneration.

Perhaps you would like to revisit the Scriptures to find one that describes a born again man as one who is without eternal life and needing something else.

That’s all I can do for tonight. It has been a full day for me. Will try to get through the questions again tomorrow. And I also have a new post I need to finish.

Thanks Mark for continuing the lively conversation.