Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

The difference between us is you think people can accept the message of salvation while dead in sin. You base this on the fact that Jesus told the pharisee’s that they did ‘good’ things.

No. I believe that evil people can do “good” because Jesus said so. I believe that unregenerate people can believe the gospel because God commanded them to believe and then Jesus reasoned with one who was unregenerate. Jesus didn’t say to Nicodemus that you must be “resurrected” to see the kingdom of heaven. He said that you must be “born again”. Jesus was giving him reason to believe. Jesus did not say that He had just resurrected him and had just given him a clean heart so that he could believe. That is foreign to the text.

Isaiah 1:18 (NASB)
“Let Us Reason”
18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.

God always reasons with unbelievers. But this would be completely useless if they had to be resurrected before they could hear.

God reasoned with Nicodemus and He reasons with us. He gives us a reason to believe and when we do believe He cleanses our heart. But for the Calvinist way of thinking an unregenerate person cannot be reasoned with because they are unreachable because “dead” means they cannot seek for God and they cannot hear God.

I do not think people can accept the message while dead in sins.

But the Scripture doesn’t say this and we see God both in the OT and Jesus in the NT reasoning with the unregenerate. This would make God very unwise and unreasonable if unregenerate people cannot hear and accept the message. I want to rely on what the Scripture actually says not what I think the process should be. I want to give God the glory for working hard to reach the unregenerate.

They need the work of the Spirit to open their eyes to the message.

Yes, indeed, this is what I have been saying all along. But they do not need to be born again before they can respond and see.

Although the pharisee’s did ‘good’ things that has nothing to do with salvation. Any ‘good’ in this world is the common grace of God poured out on believers and non-believers, but this does not mean that they can seek or find God while still dead in sin.

I didn’t say that the good things would save them. But you said that unbelievers couldn’t do any good. I showed you how this is not true in the Scriptures.

Common grace is indeed given to all. And that common grace is all that is needed for God to allow an unregenerate person to seek Him. In fact only the unregenerate can “seek” God. Once a person is regenerate they have “found” God and they are in His family. The seekers are always the unregenerate.

From what i can tell you believe unregenrate man has the ability to seek God. I do not. I believe only regenerate man has the ability to seek God.

Another problem that you have is that only the unregenerate are told to seek for God. The regenerate are told to live by the Spirit. They are not told to seek God because He is already within them. Don’t you see that? Only one who is not filled with God’s Spirit will need to “seek” Him. How can the regenerate be “seekers” when they are God’s family?

This seems to be our difference. When regeneration occurs! (and perhaps what regeneration means)

Yes, indeed this is one of the differences between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. I just don’t understand how you can believe that God causes one to be “born again” and put His seed within them and they are given a new heart that has been cleansed from sin and yet they are not saved. I have never seen God put His seed into a person without that person being a child of God. And no child of God is an unsaved person. Your inability to see that totally confounds me. I didn’t need a man’s book to show that to me. The Holy Scriptures speak volumes about salvation.

Cheryl, i would love to talk more with you about Job and other OT saints. I think that is a very important point. Can you answer a few brief questions relating to Job- why was he righteous? Or what do you believe made God call him righteous? Was it because he feared God?

I will answer your question from the Scriptures for they alone have the answers.

Proverbs 1:28–30 (NASB)
28 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30 “They would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.

Job was a person who did not hate knowledge. He accepted God’s counsel and did not spurn God’s reproof. He chose the fear of the LORD because of the knowledge that God gave.

Psalm 25:12 (NASB)
12 Who is the man who fears the LORD?
He will instruct him in the way he should choose.

When we respond to God with the fear of the Lord, He promises to instruct us in the way that we should choose. We are given both the opportunity and the requirement to choose God’s way.

Job 1:1 (NASB)
Job’s Character and Wealth
1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Job 1:8 (NASB)
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

Job chose to fear God because it was a choice given him. He feared God and turned away from evil as God gave Him instructions on how he should live.

Are you saying that God bringing people to salvation or the new covenant is dependent upon them first fearing Him?

I am saying that according to the passage of John 6 that we were discussing the ones that were brought to Jesus, those ones, were those who feared God and had been taught by Him.

John 6:45 (NASB)
45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 (NASB95)
9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

All who feared God and chose to hear and learn from the Father were all brought to Jesus and thousands of them got saved in one day.

Acts 2:5 (NASB)
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

These devout people were the God-fearers.

John 9:31 (NASB)
31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

Acts 10:2 (NASB)
2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Acts 17:4 (NASB)
4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women.

The ones who feared God were open to hearing His word.

Acts 2:37–38 (NASB)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41 (NASB)
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

These ones who were lead to Christ were already God-fearing people and they readily accepted and heard the Word.