Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

Again you are convincing me more that you don’t actually understand the people you oppose-namely reformed Christians. No one i know who holds to a reformed doctrine would come to the conclusion that we don’t need to pray or that it is synergism.

You did not read me right. I am not representing this as what most Calvinists believe. I am saying that this is the consistent outcome of the doctrine. You yourself commented that some Calvinists do nothing because of their beliefs. I am just grateful that most Calvinists do not take their doctrine to its logical conclusion. I have yet to hear anyone explain why our prayers for people could have any influence on God regarding their salvation. If God ordained all either to salvation or to reprobation before they were born and He did so without the influence of any human, then it is logical to say that people will either go to Heaven or Hell whether a single person prays for them or not since their destiny is already ordained. If my understanding of the “set” nature of the ordaining of the elect to Heaven and the reprobate to hell is not really “set”, then please explain where I see the conclusion in a wrong way.

Again, I am not representing what normal Calvinists believe. I am thankful that most do not take their doctrine to its logical conclusion. But some have seen the hopelessness of praying for anyone’s salvation when they believe that it is already set in stone. Again, this is part of the inconsistency of Calvinism that makes me scratch my head.

God has instituted prayer as one means by which faithful people can pray that God might open people’s eyes.

Mark, if you are going to be perfectly honest here, you would need to say that God instituted prayer as a means that God uses to bring the elect to a place where He resurrects them so that they can have their eyes opened. But the fact is that prayer is essentially unnecessary in this situation if God has already ordained that that person is one of the elect and it is an affront to the Sovereignty of God in the Calvinist sense that God would “need” people to do His work.

The things that you write are how non-Calvinists see God’s work and the importance of prayer. We believe in the importance of prayer because God has not unconditionally ordained all to either salvation or reprobation. Therefore we believe that God really does hear us and our prayers move Him.

Sure that person may not be elect, but we do not know that- only God does. But clearly God has told us to pray and witness to ALL people.

So if God knows that He has unconditionally ordained most to eternal destruction, then what reason does He have for us to pray for their salvation?

If God chooses to use prayer to fulfill His will that is fine. ( but that is not synergism which said people have the ability in themselves to seek salvation)

I don’t believe it is “synergism” either, but because the term “monergism” (Greek mono meaning “one” and erg meaning “work”) is one person alone doing the work, then isn’t our prayers as being necessary for the salvation of another person by Calvinist definition also a synergistic act? If not, please explain how your work is not synergistic in bring a person to faith, while a person’s own faith is called synergistic? It is another area that makes me scratch my head.

However God may choose not to answer a prayer because it is not in alighnment with His will. THis parody stands with every aspect of our christian life, not just salvation.

But this is not the issue. The issue is not whether God can choose to answer a prayer or not, but whether He needs our prayers for the salvation of another person. Does He needs our prayers or not? If He needs our prayers for a person to become saved, what is this not synergistic according to the Calvinist definition? And if God doesn’t want to appear to have a synergistic work with humans, and He alone unconditionally decides who will be saved and who will not be saved from eternity past, then why would He require our prayers? Please explain.

Your point makes no sense- your conclusion doesn’t fit. Otherwise you think every time we pray God answers it- but that is simply not the case because we do not know what his will is.

Again, this is not the question. The question is why God needs our prayers for the lost before they can become saved?

That is why calvinists in the past have been wrong- that actually didn’t hold to the teaching of calvin nor the Bible. The logical conclusion of calvinism is not ‘do nothing’. THat is a wrong understanding of calvinism or as some say ‘high calvinism’.

I do not agree with ‘high calvinism’ but I do see the logic of their conclusion. You have not explained how their logic does not follow the ‘facts’. For if God really has unconditionally ordained election either to salvation or damnation, then how is it possible for our prayers to affect any difference in the person’s outcome? It can’t change a single thing if Calvinism is correct. That seems as obvious to me as the nose on my face.

Okay on to dealing with another comment.