Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

I don’t think you should doubt Jesus. But I don’t think taking universal language the way you do is correct. After all Romans 5 says that Jesus justified ‘all’ men. Should we take that to mean every single person. Now I know your not a universalist so I’m sure you don’t, therefore why do you take Jn 12 to mean every single person in the world?

What you fail to see is that Jesus paid the price for all men and justified all men by His sacrifice but the price had to be applied before that justification can be put on our behalf.

Let me ask you…did Jesus pay for your justification on the cross? When was that payment made on your account? Was it made when Jesus died or was it placed on your account when you believed? Or when?

Romans 5 shows that God reconciled all of His enemies through the cross. The justification happened at the cross. But the application was yet to be applied. The fact is that Christians are those who have had that payment and the justification put onto their account.

I am sure that you also believe in a two part justification with the price paid and the price applied. Why should that be any different from those who had the price paid but who refuse the payment?

Not only that but how does Jesus draw all the people in the world who have never heard about Him.

Jesus is God. He is able to work in the hearts of people to draw them to Himself even if they do not know Him as God. He worked on my heart through the Holy Spirit before I became saved. He draws them to Himself through the revelation that He has already given them.

Have you not heard of cases where God has drawn people in lands that have not heard of Him and yet they were waiting and ready for when the missionaries came and they received the gospel with joy. To say that God is limited in drawing people to prepare their hearts for the gospel would be a sad revelation of your view of the Sovereignty of God.

Why should we bother reaching the unreached if Jesus has already drawn them? See the problem?

Because drawing people doesn’t save them. They still need the gospel. What drawing does is prepare them to hear the gospel.

We need to be careful when the bible uses universal language and not just pick and choose to fit our theology.

May I respectfully say that we should be very careful when universal language is used and interpret it to mean only a few.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

Do you think John’s intention here is that every single person in the world did not recognize or know Jesus. Surely not because we know from the gospels that people did. This is the problem with basing a theology on universal terms- you come across so many contradictions.

You have missed the point of the verse. John is saying that it was Jesus who was the Creator of the world and the world did not recognize Him as Creator. In fact it wasn’t until Jesus died and was resurrected that the disciples recognized Him as the Creator. The first clear response to His evidence that He was the Creator God was from Thomas after Jesus’ resurrection:

John 20:27–28 (NASB)
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Where is such a clear recognition of the Creator made while He was here living as a mere human? They did not recognize Him. But they did recognize Him for all that He is after the resurrection.

So once again the universal language shows that the Scriptures are true. We do not take universal language and remake the universality to mean just a mere few.

Now also about Jn 12:32 look closely at verse 33
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

If Jesus said this about his death, how can he draw every single person unless his intention was that his death brought atonement and salvation for every single person.

He did bring atonement and salvation for every single person. But not all people accepted His gift. You see, this is where you and I differ. I accept the Bible for the inspired words and I work hard not to reinterpret these prophetic utterances to make them mean far less then the full truth.

This simply is not the case because not everyone is saved.

The price paid has nothing to do with how many people are saved. Jesus paid the price whether it was accepted by all or not.

I don’t believe this verse supports your argument at all. John is particularly a writer who uses universal language a lot, and many people bring contradictions into the text by adopting wrong conclusions on universal language.

This again is your problem. You do not believe. No offense meant, but I see that you have been bewitched to believe a doctrine that contradicts Scripture. The doctrine that you hold on to and love causes you to reject the prophesies of Jesus on the atonement.

I could never love a doctrine that would force me to reject the clear teaching of the Scriptures in context and force me to reinterpret the teachings in order to make the doctrine true in my eyes. It is my sincerest desire to follow God and to lay aside my preconceptions to accept the Scripture’s testimony. I could never face God with such clear Scriptures saying that Jesus died for all men and that He draws all men and tell God that I just couldn’t believe that.