Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

So we both agree that God draws, calls, opens eyes, soften hearts all before people accept the message of Christ. But yet i guess we still disagree that faith is a gift. I’m quite surprised actually that you don’t even believe grace is a gift.

In the passage, grace is not spoken of as a gift. God’s grace or His unmerited favor is why He gives us the gift of salvation, but the passage has one gift alone. It is singular not plural. One gift, not three. I believe that God inspired the Word this way so that we would not become confused. Can you imagine that worry of a person who is not sure if the faith they have is their own faith or whether it is God’s gift? It would cause many to wonder if they are really saved. The fact is that if we have faith in God it is the only kind of faith that we need and it will be accounted to us as righteousness. If it was a gift of God it wouldn’t need to be “credited” to us as righteousness, it would be “gifted”.

Can i ask is repentance a gift or not?

No, rather it is an assignment, an authority to carry out a task, an entrusting, a grant, an allowance. If God does not assign or allow repentance, no repentance can happen. When God hardens one’s heart, there is no allowance for repentance.

Also you did not define your view of God’s sovereignty. You simply asked me if God had the ability to make choices.

I am sure that I defined God’s sovereignty, but honestly I am too tired to go through the comments to find it. But I don’t have a problem refining.

God’s Sovereignty is the Divine Power to do whatever He wants to do that is not against His nature.

Psalm 115:3 (NASB)
3 But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.

Daniel 4:35 (NASB)
35 “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’

Whatever God pleases will never be unjust or unrighteous for that would go against His nature as God cannot sin.

Why is it people will go to such lengths when Romans 9-11 is so clear. You want me to reject the reformed position and accept a view that is not even found in the Bible. Come on now.

And Romans 9 – 11 is so clear to me that God does not do anything that goes against His nature and He is kind and merciful. When Romans 9 – 11 is studied from the Bible alone without the mindset of Calvinism, this passage is breathtaking in showing God’s mercy, not God’s unjust hatred of babies. Maybe we can get to that passage at some point.

With regards to the limited atonement, i wonder how you understand John 10, when Jesus himslef declares that he lays down his life ‘for his sheep’. Maybe you think God’s sheep is everybody, i dunno?

I just take Jesus at His word with His inspired words. Jesus said that He lays down his life for His sheep. I accept that. But did Jesus say that I lay down my life only for my sheep? If He didn’t, why would we add that in?

I wonder if you feel that the OT sacrifices atoned for the whole world? Is this what you believe, or was it limited?

Any person from any nation was allowed to join with Israel and they could be a part of the covenant.

Nothing in scripture teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of every single person except the passages that use universal language.

Then why don’t you believe this language? Do you think that God could not have inspired the terms “died for the few” or “paid for the elect alone”? Was God trying to confuse us by using universal language or should we believe Him that He said that He meant?

Now we can have a more thorough discussion on that terminology but i think we both know the danger in placing a theology on universal language. After all, this is precisely what universalists do.

The universalists do much more. They teach that the death of Jesus bought the application of the price that Jesus paid. They do not believe in a two-fold sacrifice & application. This is where they go wrong. I spent months dealing with a universalist years ago who had crept in unawares to a Calvary Chapel church where he was recruiting for universalism. My friends were having him do “bible studies” at their home and one of them was being sucked in to the lies. I took on the guy head on as if I was a mother lion protecting her young. That experience was very educational for me. And the universalist did not win. The study was dismantled and he was forced to leave the church and my friends were saved from his influence.

You can’t have Jesus saying he only died for his sheep (limited) and that he died for the whole world (unlimited).

Where does Jesus say “only” His sheep. You see, this is the problem of Calvinism. It teaches you to read into the text what is not there. Jesus NEVER said ONLY His sheep. If I am wrong, please show me.

Clearly universal language is the more ambiguous, since the analogy of sheep and goats is quite clear.

No, universal language is not ambiguous. It is the truth that Jesus came to testify to. And certainly we know that the goats will be separated from the sheep in the end, but where did Jesus say that He didn’t die for the goats?

I have already shown one example from John to disprove the universal language assumption, but there are plenty more.

And I have already disproved your example. Unfortunately one has to come to the passage with a preconceived idea of what it says before your interpretation can even hope to stand. It isn’t what the passage says.

I agree, Cheryl’s analogy is worthless.(why is it Cheryl you used an analogy anyway after slamming Gazza’s earlier) That is precisely why i said her view of the atonement is also limited.

I don’t think that Gazza said “worthless”. He was asking questions not “slamming” me. And why do we have to use such language as “slamming”? We are having a passionate discussion here and we don’t need to introduce fighting words, do we? Let’s just keep this as a discussion between brothers and sisters in Christ. That is unless you really don’t believe that I am your sister in Christ. In that case you may just want to pray for God to grant me repentance and just leave the discussion alone.