Mark

Kay,

I’ve heard all these arguments before. But what you are failing to recognise is why Paul used these references. It comes directly after Paul has told the Romans that God’s word has not failed because not all Israel is Israel.
How has any of what you said relate to Paul’s original point. Or how does using the OT here help Paul’s argument. Paul’s use of these references relates directly back to his claim that all israel is not israel- so it is clear it is about individual election.

Also why after Paul outlines Jacob and Esau, does Paul expect the Romans to be upset at what he has said. If it is just ‘nations’ then there is no reason to be upset- he is just outlining history.

Also remember in Esau serving Jacob, Esau sold his birth right to Jacob, and Jocob recieved his father’s blessing not Esau. This is significant in the ancient cultures. Thus Esau lost his firstborn rights and his authority as the older brother.

Also how can it be far that God chooses Israel over the Edomites or any other nation. Even if you want to take the ‘national’ approach, you still have the same problem. Only the Jews were able to obtain salvation and atonement and not other people groups. Because you need to remember that nothing here is relating to the messiah, so Paul’s point is not to show which seed the messiah came through. Paul’s point is election- God’s sovereign choice of some over others.