Cheryl Schatz

Mark, you said:

I’m a bit concerned about your 7 points. None of your references mention at all that the Jews did not fear God. You are bringing that into the text.

I am actually quite shocked that you would contradict this point. After all you were the one who said that Romans 3:10-18 applied to all unsaved people so that all people (except those who are “born again”) do not seek for God, none of them does good and none fears God. Now you are trying to say that this passage does not apply to the Pharisees? Common now. What is making you afraid to agree that the Romans 3 passage applies to the Jews who wanted to kill Jesus?

I very carefully went through the passage to show that the Jewish Pharisees were not seeking God, they were not righteous but evil, they did not understand, their feet were swift to shed blood, they did not know the path of peace and thus there could be no fear of God in them.

Now, Mark, my friend, if you are going to say that Romans 3:10-18 does not apply to the Jewish Pharisees, then how is it that you are maintaining that all unsaved people are included in the passage except for the Jewish Pharisees? Huh?

I am especially concerned about point 7.
You conclude that your points 1-6, therefore show that Romans 3:10-18 applies to them. On the contrary Paul is writing to the Roman Church, a group of Christians. I cannot agree with you on that point. You cannot take Jesus words applied to the Pharisees and scribes and interpolate that into Romans 3.

Oh dear, are you now trying to say that Romans 3:10-18 only applies to Christians? That it is Christians who do not seek for God, Christians who do not do good and Christians who do not fear God?

Now i do not believe the pharisees were ‘God fearers’ in the sense that we generally associate the word. I was simply disagreeing with your discription of them as non God fearers. We agree they were pious. They sought to uphold the sabbath

So you don’t believe that the Pharisees were “God fearers” but you do not agree with me that the Pharisees did not fear God?

Please explain yourself. It appears to me that you are contradicting yourself big-time.

So let’s settle this right now. Do you or do you not say that Romans 3 has Paul saying that no one seeks for God and no one fears God until one is born again? What say you? Are you going to be rethinking your disagreement with me on point #7?

They were zealous for the supremacy of God

Oh really? Then why is it that Jesus said that they did not believe God’s word? No they were not zealous for the supremacy of God. Rather they loved making rules for others that they didn’t keep and they loved to have others look up to them. But they were not zealous for God. Jesus said:

Matthew 23:2–4 (NASB)
2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

You said:

They followed in the light of John the Baptist

5:35 ” He was a burning and ?shining lamp, and ?you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. “

They rejoiced only because they wanted to be noticed and John drew a crowd so they were there, but they were not coming to the light. Jesus said:

Matthew 23:5 (NASB)
5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

Yes they came to John but they were not repentant.

Matthew 3:7–8 (NASB)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 “Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

You said:

They also searched the scriptures for eternal life (5:39). I do not think we can rightly label these men as those who “have no fear of God”.

They are not searching the Scriptures to learn what God has to say. They didn’t believe God. Jesus said:

John 5:39 (NASB) “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

The grammar here is present tense. They are searching the Scriptures ” because” they think they already have eternal life right now. Check out the grammar for yourself. They were not looking to get eternal life in the future. They believed they had it. After all they thought all they needed was to be children of Abraham. No, Jesus did not say that the Pharisees were looking to hear and learn from God. They weren’t. They were proud and self-righteous and they did not fear God.

Also since we are looking at John 6 can we stay with that text and keep to it’s context.

It is important to the context to know why the Pharisees did not come to Jesus since John 6 reveals that they were not followers of Jesus. This is where the Scripture’s revelation of who and what the Pharisees were will help us understand the passage better. I won’t be going outside the passage unless it directly corrolates to John 6.

Now the crowd was another story. They were not the same as the Jewish Pharisees.

What i mean by the ‘passover’ being theological is that the context of the passage parallels with Moses. Jesus is the bread of life parallel to the bread in the desert.

Okay. Sure, I agree with that too. However the Passover that is first mentioned in verse 4 is the actual event. Just so that we can agree on that too.

Basically what i mean is that there is deep theology behind the narrative, so the passover is theological not only primarily chronological.

Yes there is deep theology behind the narrative. But the passover that was mentioned in verse 4 was the actual passover celebration and this is what made the backdrop of Jesus’ words so powerful.

no problems with what you have said, but i would like to add one more thing. THe crowd is 5000 ‘men’. Now presumably there were women and childern aswell, so it was a substantial number to feed.

Yes, this is a good point. It was a very large crowed of people with many more than 5,000 there when we include the women and children.

THe 12 baskets emphasise that the miracle provided ‘more than enough’ food for everyone.

Yes, excellent point.

Jesus knew their intentions so he withdrew by himself. The detail of ‘by himself’ becomes important futher into the passage.

I will comment on this shortly in my next comment.

P.S- in the coming weeks i may be slow to respond, as we are expecting our 3rd baby in a week or so. Please bare with me.

How wonderful! Congratulations, Mark! Looks like you will have your hands full. We will just go at the pace that we can both handle responding. If either one of us is not able to respond for days or longer, neither will think that we have left the discussion, agreed?

I hope that you will keep us all informed when the blessed day arrives. Please give my regards to your wife.