Kay

“”How has any of what you said relate to Paul’s original point. Or how does using the OT here help Paul’s argument. Paul’s use of these references relates directly back to his claim that all israel is not israel- so it is clear it is about individual election.”
Mark,
Why do you assume that Paul’s phrase ” all israel is not israel” could only be refering to individuals and not groups?

“”Only the Jews were able to obtain salvation and atonement and not other people groups.”

True, but gentile persons could convert to Judaism (ie. Ruth or Ex.12:48-49) and be in the covenant group.

“”This is significant in the ancient cultures. Thus Esau lost his firstborn rights and his authority as the older brother.”

While that is true, it is also true that the *individual Esau* is never shown serving the *individual Jacob*.

If it is so clearly about individual election, then what part of “the older will serve the younger” has anything to do with eternal salvation? Why would this part need to be included?

I’m surprised that you completely discount that for Paul and virtually all Jews (and non-Jews in that culture) of his time, the group was primary and the individual secondary. Now, we *modern Westerners* view social reality in the opposite way: the individual is primary and the group secondary. Our view of the group is conditioned by our view of the individual so that the group both draws its identity from the individuals in the group and is seen as merely a collection of individuals.
But Paul’s, and his culture’s, perspective was essentially corporate. The individual was *not* viewed as standing on one’s own, but was seen as embedded in the group to which each belonged.

In that culture, corporate concerns generally took precedence over individual concerns, and when it did not, this was judged as wrong. Paul’s corporate interest can be seen in his primary concern for love and unity of the Body dominant in all his letters. Paul’s corporate perspective found *individual identity based in the group* – rather than vice versa.
So, given that the people Paul was addressing had this group over individual mindset, why would it be out of the question for him to use that to show which group the Christians were now a part of and how to be part of the group?

“how can it be far that God chooses Israel over the Edomites or any other nation. Even if you want to take the ‘national’ approach, you still have the same problem.”

But, Mark God didn’t do this unconditionally. The Edomites, descendents of Esau, were “hated”, *BecausE* of their *wickedness*.
“Even though Edom has said, “We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places,” Thus says the LORD of hosts: “They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever. (Mal. 1)