Mark

Kay

“Why do you assume that Paul’s phrase ” all israel is not israel” could only be refering to individuals and not groups?”

Because that is the only thing that makes sense. What ‘groups’ within national Israel was Paul therefore addressing? What did his OT quotes have to do with these other ‘groups’? Since you did not supply an alternative, it is clear that there isn’t one. From the wider context it is clear Paul is addressing the ‘remnant’ which theologically are those individuals who have been saved and are saved.

“True, but gentile persons could convert to Judaism (ie. Ruth or Ex.12:48-49) and be in the covenant group.”

I agree. But you have not dealt with the issue. You think it is ‘unfair’ for God to elect individuals but not nations. Both views create ‘unfairness’ regardless of whether people could ‘convert’ to Judaism. Thousands upon thousands would not have had that opportunity to ‘convert’. Did the nations have that choice when God wiped them out so that Israel could enter the ‘promised land’?

“If it is so clearly about individual election, then what part of “the older will serve the younger” has anything to do with eternal salvation? Why would this part need to be included?”

Paul’s argument is not to show how Esau served Jacob, but rather how ‘unconditionally’ God chose Jacob over Esau while they were still in the womb- before either had done anything good or bad. Paul’s point is unconditionally election!

“But, Mark God didn’t do this unconditionally. The Edomites, descendents of Esau, were “hated”, *BecausE* of their *wickedness*.”

Kay, this is completely wrong. The edomites were the descendents of Esau. What does Paul say in Romans about Esau and Jacob.
“Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—“

Here we see clearly that Jacob is chosen unconditionally before they were born. Paul is very precise to include that it is not ‘because of works’. So your hypothesis that God chose the Israelites (Jacob) because the Edomites (Esau) were wicked is simply false and contradictory to Rom 9. Yes the Edomites were ‘hated’ because of their wickedness (since God hates all wickedness), but God’s unconditional election of Jacob over Esau had nothing to do with works and was determined before they were even born or had their ‘nations’.

Kay, people try over and over again to change the meaning of Romans 9, but it simply cannot be done. Our job is to believe what the bible teaches, not what we think or want the bible to teach. Let me encourage you to look at the passage exegetically. In my experience i rejected reformed theology, but after I studied this text my arminianism was shattered. My arminian theology simply could not hold up under the pressure of Romans 9-11. We must be faithful as bible believing people to accept it’s teaching.