Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

People can only recieve eternal life by being reconciled in Christ. That is precisely why ‘life’ can only be ‘given’ to God’s elect, because only God’s elect have their sins ‘atoned’ for.

You keep saying that only a specific group of people can be given life and have their sins atoned. Where is your proof of this? Please show me one Scripture that says that Jesus died only for the elect. You cannot keep claiming that this is truth and then never prove it by the Scripture. If you can’t prove it, then you can just say “pass”, but you will need to stop claiming that Jesus died only for a select group.

Instead of a select group, in the passage that we are discussing Jesus gave His solemn declaration that He gives life to the “world”. If Jesus gave this witness, why should we not believe Him?

John 6:33 (NASB)
33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”

Your last lot of comments have diverged again. PLease stick with the verse in question. To show how you do this you asked me if i disagree with the ‘calvinists’ you quote, but neither of the quotes were dealing with the verse we are discussing.

Did you even read what I quoted? I am really concerned that you are only skimming and don’t bother to read. If you did read what was written, you would know the quote was about the verses that we are dealing with. Let’s take another look:

6:51 This pronouncement exactly reiterates vv. 33, 35, 47, 48. My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. Jesus refers here prophetically to His impending sacrifice upon the cross (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24). Jesus voluntarily laid down His life for evil, sinful mankind (10:18; 1 John 2:2).
MacArthur, J. J. (1997). The MacArthur Study

(i) the “living bread” has descended from heaven, i.e., he is the Incarnate One who has life in himself for others (cf. 5:26); (ii) the “bread” is the flesh of the Incarnate One which he is to give on behalf of the life of the world, i.e., he is to die that the world may live.
The “bread” is defined as “flesh” rather than the “body,” almost certainly by reason of the Evangelist’s insistence that the Word became flesh (1:14). But the conjunction of the terms “give,” “flesh,” and “on behalf of” in v 51c strongly suggests a sacrificial death for the sake of others
Beasley-Murray, G. R. (2002). Vol. 36: Word Biblical Commentary : John. Word Biblical Commentary (93–94). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

Both quotes refer to John 6:33 and 6:51. We had been talking about John 6:33 so the quotes are in context.
I is also interesting that I have two different Calvinist authors who agreeing that John 6:33, and John 6:51 are talking about Jesus giving his flesh as a sacrificial death on the cross. It is very apparent that the passage is not discussing the giving of life in a way that is outside of Jesus’ death. If these Calvinist theologians can agree that this is the case it shouldn’t be a problem for you as a Calvinist to also accept.

You are discussing ‘responses’, flesh and bread etc, none of which is dealing with the verse.

Verses 33 & 51 are speaking of the same thing and verse 51 gives further information on what the “bread” is. It is Jesus’ flesh given for the life of the world. So verse 33 which we were discussing is in context and it corresponds to verse 51 which is also in the context of John 6.

John 6:33 (NASB)
33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”

John 6:51 (NASB)
51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Also “believing” is a response to God since it is an action verb rather than passive. Therefore it is a response to God just as I said.

Perhaps we should stop and give some definitions for the words in question.
What is ‘life’? In the context Jesus is talking about eternal life.
‘Bread’- is ‘he’ or Jesus.
‘World’- has to mean God’s elect for the following reasons.

Okay let’s work with the definitions.
Life:

Life. (1) physical life (RO 8.38), opposite (death); (2) supernatural life, opposite (what is subject to dying) and (destruction, death), received by believers as a gift from God (JN 3.36; 1J 5.11), experienced both now (RO 6.4) and eternally (MK 10.30); (3) viewed as an attribute of God (1J 5.20) and Christ (JN 5.26b)
Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker’s Greek New Testament library (187).

I think that we can agree that it is eternal life that is the meaning in John 6:33.

World:

World. (1) adornment, adorning (1P 3.3); (2) as the sum total of all created beings in heaven and earth world, universe (AC 17.24); (3) as all human beings mankind, humanity, all people (MK 16.15); (4) as this planet inhabited by mankind world, earth (MT 16.26; JN 11.9); (5) morally, mankind as alienated from God, unredeemed and hostile to him world (1J 5.19); (6) sum total of particulars in any one field of experience, world, totality (JA 3.6)
Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker’s Greek New Testament library (235)

It is interesting that the term “world” has no reference to the elect.

Bread:

(1) bread, loaf of bread (MT 4.3); (2) by metonymy food, nourishment (LU 15.17)
Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker’s Greek New Testament library (76).

As far as the meaning of the bread, Jesus said “I am the bread of life…” John 6:35

There is no doubt that it is Jesus who is the bread that is referred to as the “bread of life”.

You said:

It cannot be universal unless you hold to a doctrine of universalism.

This is not true. Jesus can be the one who gives life to all without all being saved. It is because the atonement is accomplished by one payment (the death) and the application. This is consistent with every offering of atonement in the Bible.

Eternal life is not ‘given’ to everybody. You may think it is ‘offered’ but the text is not saying offered, it is saying ‘given’. Now is eternal life ‘given’ to everybody, yes or no? The Bible says an emphatic no!

Not true. The Bible says an emphastic “yes”! It is given to everyone. This is the key importance of the atonement – that it was a universal sacrifice that no man can ever blame God for not giving on his behalf. It is a “paid for” sacrifice that is “applied” by faith.

You can’t argue all you like about offers and sprinkling and all your other points, but that is not dealing with the verse. Do you believe that eternal life is given to every single person? Not offered but given as the verse says? The reality is, eternal life is only ‘given’ to those who trust in Christ- it is not given universally. So the only way to understand ‘world’ has to be in regards to those who trust in Christ- God’s elect.

Here is where you miss the boat. Eternal life is “given” to all but “received” by only a few.

In the same book, John makes this clear:

John 1:12 (NASB)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Receiving Jesus (the sacrifice that was given) is receiving eternal life. John writes later in 1 John 5:12 that the one who has the Son has the life.

1 John 5:12 (NASB)
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Eternal life is given in the person of the Son and to the one who receives Him, God gives them the right to become children of God.

Now I would like to ask you some questions on these verses and this will be in my next comment.