Cheryl Schatz

Mark #337

It will likely take me awhile to answer your comments. My time is limited once again as tomorrow my son arrives with his new fiancée whom we have not yet met so I will want to spend time with them and won’t have as much time for the computer until they leave. If I get some time during their visit to work through your comments, I will do so, but just so you know why I am absent for awhile this time. I am also going comment by comment without reading through it all, so hopefully you won’t be upset with me if I miss something. It is easier for me to deal with the comments this way.

Mark, you said:

“john 12:32 (NASB95)
32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Jesus as God said He would draw “all men” to Himself. I believe Him”

Go back to the greek Cheryl and you will see that the grammar does not include ‘men’ in it. So Jesus simply saids i will draw ‘all’ to myself- all what?, ahould be our question? I could insert all ‘babies if i want to but that does not make it right to insert ‘men’. You assume every single person, but the text does not support that.

You are right that the text doesn’t say “men” but it isn’t uncommon for the “all” to be listed without the term “men” when clearly people are meant . In John 2:24 Jesus said the same thing about “all” and the term “men” isn’t there either. But the context of both passages assumes “people”.

John 2:24 (NASB)
24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,

So, what is the concern in John 12:32? It can’t be a question of the extent of the number since Jesus said all nota few. All what? All babies? All butterflies? What does the context say?

In the context immediately before the verse, Jesus is talking about the judgment that would come upon the whole world.

John 12:31–32 (NASB)
31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Jesus uses the general term “this world” and the ruler of “this world” and in preparation for the judgment, he will draw “all” to Himself.

Whenever the term “all” is used the word means “the whole” or “every” unless there is a limiter in the text that would preclude some from being included. The text appears pretty clear that Jesus meant just want He said (all) since He is talking about the judgment. After He said these words, He said some valuable words to the unbelieving crowd.

John 12:35–36 (NASB)
35 So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.

Jesus commands the crowd to believe in Him in order that they may become sons of God (sons of Light). How could they become sons of God if Jesus did not die for them? Certainly they were also included in the general term “all” and if unbelievers who never became believers were included in the “all”, then why should we not believe Jesus when He said that He would draw all to Himself? I have accepted that Jesus would draw all people to Himself because I don’t have any prejudice that would not allow me to accept what Jesus said within the context of the passage.

So please answer me a few questions on this verse regarding your own view:

1. If Jesus did not mean all “men”, then what “all” did He mean? And what is in the passage that caused you to understand that Jesus could not have meant all people?

2. If Jesus didn’t mean “all” but rather He meant “a few” then why did Jesus not say what He meant? If He really meant “a few” and said “all” then wouldn’t that be deceptive and untrue?

We see in John 6 that only those the Father ‘draws’ are the ones who come to Jesus and thus believe. So if the Father drew all people it would in essence mean that all are saved. The grammar does not support your claim nor does the other passages that use the term ‘draw’.

That is actually not true. The reason is because “draw” is not a synonym for “come”. The Father will “draw” all but the ones drawn must also “come”.

Let’s look at this passage carefully:

John 6:44 (NASB)
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

“No one can come”- coming an active verb that is something that we do. It is an action that is carried out by us, while the verb “draws” is an active verb that the Father does. They are not synonyms. They are actions done by different people. So while the passage says that no one is able to come (no one has the power of them self to come) unless the Father draws that person, it doesn’t say conversely that all that the Father draws will come. We cannot assume that all that are drawn will come because the passage doesn’t say it. The ones who will be raised up are all the ones who come, not all the ones who are drawn.

So what we see in John 6 without reading into the passage is that no one come to Jesus unless they are drawn by the Father. And all those who come will be raised up by Jesus. There is not a single passage of Scripture that I know of that says that all who are drawn by the Father will come to Jesus. What John 6 says is that all those who are given to Jesus will come. It is a big difference. The term “given” and the term “drawn” again are not synonyms. So without any outside prejudice, when we come to this passage, and in the context of Jesus words in chapter 12 we can see that all will be drawn by Jesus (john 12:32) yet not all will come to Jesus (John 6:64). But all those who are given to Jesus by the Father will be both drawn by the Father (John 6:44) and will come to Jesus (John 6:37) and of those given to Jesus none will be lost (John 6:39), and all will be raised (John 6:39) and all will believe in Jesus (John 6:40).

It is also important to understand what the greek word for ‘draw’ is, according to BDAG it is a ‘dragging’, thus why reformers use the term ‘Iresistable Grace’. Grace can not be resisted for God’s elect since he in essence ‘drags’ them to himself.

The problem with this understanding is that “drawing” or “pulling” propels one along, but it cannot be an irresistible instigator of “coming” since “coming” is an active verb of our own action not God’s action. If it was indeed an irresistible action of God’s then the “coming” would be His action not ours.

to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw, with implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of pers. is unwilling to do so voluntarily, in either case with implication of exertion on the part of the mover
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (318).

While God pulls us towards Jesus, the term for what God does in compelling us is a term that is not irresistible.

Luke 14:23 (NASB)
23 “And the master said to the slave, ‘Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled.

The same term for “compel” is used in Acts 26:11 and the force of the compelling is successfully resisted.

Acts 26:11 (NASB)
11 “And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.

The fact is that Jesus said He would draw all, but His drawing has been successfully resisted by many. In the OT the pleading of God and the work of the Holy Spirit was also successfully resisted so there is nothing that says that God’s drawing is irresistible in sinful men.

You said:

So there is not one verse in the Bible that says God draws ‘ALL MEN’, or ‘ALL PEOPLE’ to himself.

John 12:32 is that verse. I know that it goes against your theology, but I personally would have a problem with a theology that contradicts Scripture and especially one that contradicts the Lord Jesus.

I will get to your other comments as I have time.