Mark

Kristen,

“Arminians (in general) believe that when God “draws” someone, God enables that person to make a true choice. The sinner’s desire is bent towards sin; God provides just enough power to pull, but not to coerce, the sinner temporarily away from that bent. Suspended during the drawing process between the sinner’s desires and God’s, the sinner is in a state where he/she CAN choose.”

I am glad you brought these points up, since it is true depending on which ‘Armininan’ you talk to. An open theist (who label themselves Arminian) would reject what you have said- if God ‘pulls’ then it is not a free choice at all. A free choice has to be free from external forces does it not? This is why the ‘classical arminian’ position is so contradictory. They want to hold onto God working, but equally hold onto autonomous free will. Many recognise the problem here and have such turned to either Calvinism or open theism. Do we have free-will in heaven?

Second point, where does the Bible declare any of what you have said. ‘Draw’ in biblical greek means to drag, or pull in. It is most definitely a ‘coercise’ type greek word, not a passive one. What about all the people who haven’t had the choice to hear the gospel? Does God still draw them in the sense you mean? Show me from scripture what you have stated!

“Once the choice is made for God, the person’s nature is changed by regeneration of the Holy Spirit. But STILL there is no coercion– God’s power sets us free; it does not enslave us to doing God’s desire. Otherwise how could the regenerate person still be tempted?”

You missed the point of reformed theology. Reformed theology is dealing with salvation. How is a dead person able to choose the right thing? They simple cannot because they are dead. A calvinist does not say therefore that God wipes out our sinful desires post conversion. Paul outlines in Romans 7 the struggle we all face with our sin natures until the final eschaton. The issue is at salvation- before God gives us a new heart and the Spirit of God. Are people before that time able to respond to God? It’s obvious you believe in some sort of prevenient grace- maybe you can expand on it? Where is it in the Bible? When does it happen? These are vital question that an Arminian needs to answer from the Scriptures

“We were enslaved to sin without hope; but God’s work in our lives frees our will.”

Amen! Couldn’t agree more, we were without hope. So maybe you can show me from the Bible what you believe God’s work is? How far does it extend? Who does it extend to? Answers from the Bible please!

“We can still have confidence that He who began the good work will complete it, but God has made us sons, not slaves.”

Now what do you mean by God completing His good work? If it’s solely up to us, and God is not ‘coercing’ how can we be confident of anything except our own ‘choices’. Now does Romans 8:5-11 say that we are ‘controlled’ by the Spirit? Paul makes a clear contrast. We are either controlled by sin or we are controlled by the Spirit? God is not passive in our lives. He works out his plan and achieves what he has purposed. He works in us and through us.

Also about the ‘slaves’ stuff. Have a look at Rom 6:15ff. We are both sons of God and slaves of God. Again Paul draws a contrast- either we are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Verse 16 says “don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey”. So I would disagree with you at this point. If we are true Christians and want to obey God, we are slaves to God. Verse 18 “you have set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness”. Verse 22 “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God…”

I do appreciate my brothers and sisters who hold onto evangelical arminianism. I just want them to show me from the sciptures what they believe. Where is prevenient grace? Where is predestination determined on foreknowledge of faith? Where is autonomous free-will free from external coercion? Let me finish with a few quotes from an Arminian.

“Absolutely crucial to all forms of free-will theism is the belief that persons only exercise free choice or liberty of decision and action when they could do otherwise than they do” Roger Olsen ‘Perspectives on the Doctrine of God’

So here Olsen outline an Arminian free-will. The person must be able to choose other than they do. So in essence, a person has to have the ability to choose God or reject God. But what Olsen fails to realise is that choices are governed by our desires.

“A person who cannot do X instead of Y cannot be exercising free will when doing Y even if he or she wants to do Y”

well there goes Pauls point in Romans 6 that we are slaves to sin. Unless of course God grants prevenient grace. But like always, Olsen doesn’t defend that point. Then he has the stupidity to say this…

“Christian free-will theists affirm that creaturely free-will is limited by many factors; God, sin, the environment and others.”

How’s that for a contradiction! We are only free if we can legitimately choose X and Y, yet we are limited by all these factors. So therefore we are not free at all. What if one of those limits (let’s say sin) effects our ability to choose X or Y. This is the precise inconsistency I am talking about. Olsen has essentially defended the view he has opposed, namely Augustinianism. He realises that our free-will is limited and restricted by factors. Thus why I reject such silly claims. They are logically inconsistent but more importantly un-biblical.