Cheryl Schatz

Mark,

You said in one of your posts that we only chosen what we desire. That is not true. Many of us Moms and Dads have chosen things that we do not desire because of our love for our kids. And while even non-Christians can love cheesecake and greatly desire it, they choose what they don’t like in order to remain thin and healthy. It is a fallacy to say that people only chose what they desire. People are complicated as Kirsten told you and it would be unwise to create a theology that would require a simplistic answer about people’s choices.

Mark you answered Kirsten by saying:

I am glad you brought these points up, since it is true depending on which ‘Armininan’ you talk to. An open theist (who label themselves Arminian) would reject what you have said- if God ‘pulls’ then it is not a free choice at all. A free choice has to be free from external forces does it not? This is why the ‘classical arminian’ position is so contradictory.

You cannot equate the ‘classical Arminian’ position with open theism. Open theism is heretical view of God’s nature. It is never identified as the ‘classical’ position of Arminianism. In classical Arminianism a free choice does not have to be free from outside influence. Are you sure that you used to hold to the classical Arminian position because it really seems odd to me that you don’t understand it.

They want to hold onto God working, but equally hold onto autonomous free will.

The classical Arminian position does not hold to a completely “autonomous” free will since their view is that without God’s power enabling, no one could have a free will at all.

Many recognise the problem here and have such turned to either Calvinism or open theism. Do we have free-will in heaven?

Many Calvinists falsely view it as an option of a. Calvinism or b. open theism. Many simply just refuse to understand the classical Arminian position.

I know that you asked Kirsten, but if you don’t mind I will give you my own view before I go back to answer you many posts that I have not yet answered.

I believe that God “hardens” our decisions at one point. He had the right to “harden” Pharoah’s choice of hardening his own heart by refusing to let the people of Israel go. And then there are “elect” angels who made a decision to follow God in heaven and not turn away after Lucifer. Even though satan was allowed back into heaven to be an accuser of the brethren, no other angel in heaven abandoned God and left with satan after the original heavenly fall. I believe that God has made them the “elect” angels because He has hardened their own free will choice of faithfulness toward God and since their own choice is “hardened” in place by God, they are assured of being kept sinless and faithful to God.

We can dialog more on the issue of drawing when we get to Romans.

You missed the point of reformed theology. Reformed theology is dealing with salvation. How is a dead person able to choose the right thing? They simple cannot because they are dead.

A dead person cannot chose to do evil either for that matter. Biblically a “dead” person can be both “dead” and “alive” and their spiritual separation can happen at any time.

1 Timothy 5:6 (NASB)
6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Romans 7:9 (NASB)
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

I won’t comment more now as I have a lot to answer that was given to me that I haven’t had time to answer yet. I would just like to finish with a couple of your quotes:

I do appreciate my brothers and sisters who hold onto evangelical arminianism. I just want them to show me from the sciptures what they believe.

This seems rather odd to me. You claim to have been an evangelical Arminian but you don’t seem to know or understand what Arminians believe. And it seems to me that you are not really wanting to know what Arminians believe but that you are looking to teach the rest of us Calvinism through the Scriptures. This is why I believe it is important to first answer the Calvinist’s proof texts and then deal with the other texts after that. For while you think you have a strength in your own favorite texts, you do not have eyes that can see without prejudice. It is a prejudice that also causes Calvinists to see their brothers in Christ as heretics just because we are not Calvinists. Honestly it doesn’t come across as “appreciation”. But maybe there is some appreciation hidden somewhere that I haven’t been quick enough to pick up. And lastly while you say that you appreciate your Arminian brothers, why is it that you feel the need to evangelize them? If Calvinism is true, wouldn’t God just drop the Calvinistic faith into each of us as proof that we are of the elect? Isn’t God able to do that? And if He doesn’t do that, what does that say to you? Are we still appreciated?

Unfortunately it looks like I have run out of time for tonight. I will try to get to the bulk of the comments I missed tomorrow.

Take care my Calvinist amigo.