Cheryl Schatz

Mark, you said:

But from the context of Eph 2 it is clear that the present particple is not used as a continual state of being, but as an emphatic remark to show us (and you) how merciful God is in Christ, by making us alive, when we were hopelessly dead in sin.

That is not clear at all. The imperfect tense would have been clear. There is nothing in the text that says we are “hopelessly” dead in sin so that we cannot respond to God’s drawing until we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places. How is it that we are in the heavenly places without faith anyway? Here are the next verses:

Ephesians 2:5–6 (YLT)
5even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,) 6and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

It is far more understandable that as Christians we are dead to sin because of Christ’s work (He is the first one who died to sin) and as dead to sin we are alive together with Christ and we are seated in the heavenly places in Christ. It makes no sense at all that an unbeliever is raised with Christ when he doesn’t yet believe in Christ. How could the passage say that an unbeliever must be raised with Christ and be “in Christ” in order to believe?

Nowhere in the Scriptures is an unbeliever ever said to be “in Christ”, or that an unbeliever is raised with Christ and seated in Christ in heaven in order to be saved, yet you confidently state that this passage is about unbelievers becoming alive before they believe. This is an extremely confusing rendering that has no other witness in the Scriptures. How could I be so blind to just accept nonsense like this? It truly doesn’t make sense with test by the Scriptures.

So if you were serious about your claims to know the truth of the grammar you would not say the things that you have. You would realise that the present tense verbs can be used and mean different things to your proposal. Please be honest with your readers about that.

I have been completely honest about the normal usage of the word and it would not be a fair thing for you to challenge my sincerity. You also have agreed with me that there is a normal and clear way to present the “being” dead as a past tense using another piece of grammar, but the Scripture did not take this normal and natural route. Could it really be because God is emphasizing his mercy by making us alive with Christ in the heavens even when we were in the state of being dead in sin? How can that be? If it is God’s mercy that makes a person alive with Christ in the heavens before he believes, then why would faith be required for salvation? The person is already “in Christ” and “in the heavens” in a place of authority and as an heir “in Christ” so the only thing that we can get from this passage with your interpretation is that unbelievers are mercied “in Christ” in the heavens as heirs while they are still in their unbelief!! Thus unbelievers are joined together in the body of Christ (in Christ) without faith, without repentance and while dead in sin. Sorry, but I don’t find this an honest rendering of the gospel of God’s grace and the problems that this view brings to play are massive in my opinion. I just want to keep true to the text within its own context and within the full picture of the Bible. It is inconceivable that people dead in their sins are united with Christ as unbelievers and that this is necessary for them to believe. And it is inconceivable to me that my sincerity of faith is in question because that rendering does not appear faithful to the Scriptures. So why do Calvinists questions non-Calvinist’s sincerity? Were you one of the insincere ones before you bcame a Calvinist?

As I said, the normal usuage is a present state of being or an ongoing action and other usages have to have special grammar to make them something other than the norm.

More to come…