Cheryl Schatz

Mark you said:

Regarding your claim that the Cannaanites of the conquest were given a chance to repent. I noticed you quoted Jeremiah. Now Jeremiah was a exilic prophet, who lived, what, some 500-600 years after the conquest of the land. So no, the Jeremiah text does not deal with my question at all.

The timing doesn’t matter at all because God gave the Word and He does not change. Let’s read it again:

Jeremiah 18:7–8 (NASB)
7 “At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.

God’s shows that His purpose in coming against a sinful nation to destroy is to have repentance first rather than destruction. Since God says this about a nation that He sets His mind to destroy, and since God does not change, we can know that God has the same plan for any nation to repent before He destroys them. Just because He knows that most will not repent, doesn’t mean that His purpose changes. Now if you think that God changes from one ungodly nation to another and changes His timeless prophecy about the importance of repentance that moves the hand of God, then you will need to show that God

Also with Jonah, the time frame was way off the conquest.

The book of Jonah is undated, but many scholars believe that it is one of the oldest books in the Bible. In this book Jonah shows that the God who does not change is merciful and will respond to a nation who repents.

God also shows that He is merciful by not destroying the Amorites (part of Canaan) until their sin had reached a level where destruction was imminent.

Genesis 15:16 (NASB)
16 “Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”

So we see God’s mercy even for a time by not destroying the Canaanites and we can be certain because of knowledge of God’s character of longsuffering and mercy that He gave them enough evidence regarding who He is at least through nature in order for them to seek Him.

Romans 1:19–20 (NASB)
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has done this for all.

I agree though with the aliens becoming part of the convenant people. However a covenant people were a chosen people, a loved people. Other nations were not a covenant people.

The passage I quoted is not about other nations but the people from these nations. They were given full covenant status in Israel and so they did become covenant people of all who came. Is the issue about individuals or not? You may need to decide now before we gt to Romans 9.

Now the atonement is clear in my view. Either it atoned and achieved a purpose or it didn’t. An Arminian position saids it didn’t achieve forgiveness, just that it made it possible, if people would just reach out and grab it.

I don’t know Arminians who would argue that the atonement did not achieve forgiveness. Either Jesus paid for the sins on the cross or He didn’t. If He didn’t then no forgiveness is “possible” so it should be obvious that the payment was completed on the cross.

So the question I have is this – were you a person who did not understand the atonement and only thought that forgiveness was possible? Is that why you became a Calvinist?

An Arminian atonement has the Trinity working against each other.

Oh really? Is that what you believed as an Arminian?

Jesus dies for all men, yet the Spirit does not work in all men to achieve atonement for all.

Your lack of understanding of the non-Calvinist position is amazingly lacking. You actually come across as one who was saved as a Calvinist and who has never experienced another position. Although I would like you to let me finish answering your comments before you bombard me again, I would really like you to answer Kay’s questions about your experience with Arminianism before you became a Calvinist like who you studied and read on this subject while you were still an Arminian? What books, authors did you read? Her questions are really important to me, so I would ask that you do respond even before I finish answering your questions.

So Jesus achieves for all, but the Spirit achieves for a few. See the problem.

Yes, I see your problem. You seem to have almost no understanding of the opposing position. I don’t think that is helpful for your position.

Jesus does one thing, the Spirit does another. But anyway, I’m getting ahead of my self and will wait till you give your definition of how the atonement functions.

This makes me really understand why it is so easy for some to become Calvinists. They had a lack of understanding. Or is is possible that they originally understood but the Calvinist mindset confused them and made them mixed up? I don’t know, but I wish I understood because it is really puzzling.

I don’t have much time left tonight. I will try to finish tomorrow. Just don’t give me more to answer for a bit so I can finish.

Thanks and talk to you later, amigo.