Cheryl Schatz

Mark you said:

So although this may seem messy to many people with all the technical stuff let me conclude. First the perfect indicate verb can take either past, present or future meaning depending on context.

And once again your errors show as there is no “perfect indicate” verb in Ephesians 2:1. It isn’t a “perfect” tense nor is there such a thing as an “indicate” verb.

Verse 1 is not even a present indicate but a present participle which by definition means a contrast is being made.

What on earth is a “present indicate”? No, my friend, “Being” in Eph. 2:1 is a present participle and your assertion that “by definition” this means a contrast is being made is off the wall. Where is such a “definition” to be found? I have no grammar source that gives such a definition for a “present participle” so I would like to know if you just made this up and you thought no one would notice? If you didn’t make it up, please provide your legitimate source for claiming that “a present participle which by definition means a contrast is being made.”

Here is “A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research concerning the present participle:

5. PARTICIPLE. The present participle, like the present inf., is timeless and durative.
   Robertson, A. (1919; 2006). A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (891).

Cheryl has not been faithful to how the greek grammar functions. She has only put forward one view of how the present indicative functions when there are many others.

Here again you (deliberately?) substitute the “present indicative” for the “present participle” right after you make up a definition for the “present participle” claiming that it is required to be a contrast by definition(!) and you have the nerve to say that I am unfaithful to the Greek?

Not only that, but the present indicate is not there, but it is a present participle showing contrast.

And once again you claim a tense that doesn’t exist “present indicate” and claim that the “present participle” shows contrast. How can you do this and keep a straight face?

So not only am I confused at how a greek scholar ignores simple greek grammar, but her interpretation in my view is unbiblical and divorces the verse from it’s context. Cheryl you will have to do much better to convince me of your interpretation and please weigh all the evidence up.

I do not claim to be a Greek scholar, but I have no doubt at all that you are not a Greek scholar. Honestly I don’t know how you can claim to be a scholar and make the kinds of incomprehensible boo-boos with the Greek.

And for the record, I know that I will never convince you of anything. First of all, I don’t need to convert you as you are already a brother in Christ. Secondly when one has to make up definitions for a Greek tense in order to try to sway an argument to his side, it seems to me that your mind is made up already because you like the idea that in Calvinism you can be of the special class of ones that God alone loves leaving billions outside of that special love. It is unlikely that anyone who has such a reason of being fully in love with “the doctrines of grace” would ever see past that love. So, no, I am not thinking that I will persuade you at all. What I am very willing to do is to challenge myself in every way possible so that I can work hard to show myself as a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Should I find out that I am wrong in an area, I am pleased to submit to correction. But I don’t submit to made up definitions of the Greek and made up tenses. That would never work with me and I am sorry that you had to do that to try to bolster your case.

Anyways, I will continue to work through the comments and then we can go on to finish John 6.

I have been thinking that working through Romans would be the most profitable thing to work on next. How about starting with Romans 5 and working our way through the chapters to end with Romans 10? I find these discussions stimulating.

I do find dialoging about the deep things of God a very valuable thing to do and it isn’t often that I get to dig deep as I have with you. For that I am most grateful.

Whew! I got finished with that long comment of yours and I am going to take a break and see what I can finish tonight. It is taking me longer than I thought, but hopefully I get through all of your comments soon.

I think that when we start Romans we should start another post because this one sure has a lot of comments to keep up with. We should keep our subjects separate so that it isn’t as confusing. Game?