Mark

Cheryl,

I never said i was a greek scholar…far from it. I would have considered you one though (which is what i said), that is why it worried me that you ignored the many meanings the present indicative takes, or at least failed to disclose them to everyone.

BUt it seems you don’t consider yourself one and that’s fine. I won’t call you one if you don’t want me too. But i never ever called myself a greek scholar- let me make that clear.

Now Eph 2:1 doesn’t fit ‘your’ criteria that’s all. It seems that the majority of Greek scholars and translators disagree with you. MAybe you can make a Cheryl Schatz translation to correct all the wrong translators in the world!

Now i’m not in my office with all my greek grammars but here is one example to explain the present participle i found.

“The concessive participle implies that the state or action of the main verb is true in spite of the state or action of the participle. Its force is usually best translated with although. This category is relatively common.”

Now we agree that the main verb is in verse 5 correct? So the action of verse 5, being alive, is true in spite of the present participle. Now Eph 2:1 is an example of this is it not? Despite the fact that we were dead in our sins, God made us alive. It’s a contrast…’while you were A, God did B’, ‘although you were A, God did B’. It is not saying you are A while also B. But when i am in my office next week i’ll get back to you more with the other grammars i have.

Also i comfused how quickly you dismissed ‘pote’. Surely you agree that verse 1-7 is the one sentence, and that whole sentence is reliant on the verb in verse 5. So how is that you think you can disconnect ‘pote’ from the context? You challenged that no such ‘extra’ grammar was present and when you are shown wrong, you simply attempt to disconnect the greek sentence, c’mon now. We dead in sins ‘in which we once walked’. What is the once walked refering to Cheryl? Verse 1-3 are all tightly knitted together grammatically, adn Paul’s conclusion is that we were by nature objects of wrath.

Finally i will discuss more with you what it is you think i believe about this verse. Especailly since you think Calvinism believes that being ‘alive’ is divorced from faith. These need addressing

But i’ve run out of time