Cheryl Schatz

Mark, you copied my statemdent and then responded:

“Let’s have another look at the verse and compare it to what John himself said in the book of 1 John. John is not going to contradict himself.”

I agree that John did not contradict. In John 11 John is describing believers from the nation of Israel and those ‘scattered abroad’. 1 John 2:2 is describing the same thing ‘all the world’ i.e all the elect from every tribe toungue that are ‘scattered abroad’. Now answer how ones sins are propitiated but not actually propitiated since they go to hell?

It is because the death of the lamb fully pays for the sin, but God has created a plan for forgiveness that involves both the payment and the application of the payment.

God set this up because His Sovereign plan was to redeem mankind because of the image that He placed within us, but His plan included the desire that the redemption that would be fully and completely paid for every human being would not have the blood sprinkled on His altar as the payment applied except by faith of all those who have an awareness of their sin.

There are two condemnations of sin on mankind that needed to be atoned for. The first is the condemnation of Adam’s sin that has brought the sin nature within every one of us. That is universally atoned for by Jesus’ blood on mankind’s behalf so that no one will ever be in hell paying for Adam’s sin. Original sin was paid for by the last Adam. The first Adam brought sin into this world and the last Adam took upon Him that sin in order to pay for it completely.

Then there is our own condemnation of sin that is also atoned for by Christ but it is not applied onto our account except by faith. So when Jesus hung on the cross his death paid for all the sins of all people as these sins were all placed on Him. Then He was resurrected for our justification showing that His sacrifice had been accepted by God.

But God has always shown throughout the Scriptures that the payment of the price must be accepted by faith so that the blood can be applied only by faith. In the OT in the Passover, the lamb had great value but the value was not applied to the account of the house unless the blood was applied onto the doorpost. All the examples in the Scriptures show the same thing – the price is paid and then the forgiveness is applied by the application of the blood.

After Jesus died and after He was resurrected He went back into the heavens to take His blood to be applied on the altar. He is now in timeless eternity and He applied the blood on the behalf of all those who would believe. For those who refused to repent and believe, although the redemption price has been paid for them, they will not receive forgiveness because in His Sovereignty, God worked out a plan where His image is fully redeemed but He has allowed us as humans to respond to Him in faith and accept or reject that redemption. Those who reject the redemption have not devalued the redemption. The redemption retains its full value but it will not be applied for the benefit of the one who rejects God.

Think of it this way. If a man gives a diamond ring to his girlfriend and she refuses to accept this gift but leaves it in its box on the table has the diamond ring become of no value? Well for her it is considered of no value because she has rejected it and it will not be on her finger. But the diamond has lost none of its value. We cannot say that one finding the diamond on the table should throw the diamond in the garbage because it has lost its value. No, not at all. The diamond has kept its value. It is the person who rejected it who has been proven themselves to be unworthy of the value of that diamond and everything that it stands for.

Here is another example.

On December 6, 1829 two men, George Wilson and James Porter, robbed a United States mail carrier in Pennsylvania. Both men were subsequently captured and tried. On May 1, 1830 both men were found guilty of six indictments which included robbery of the mail “and putting the life of the driver in jeopardy.” On May 27th both George Wilson and James Porter received their sentences: Execution by hanging. The sentences were to be carried out on July 2nd, 1830.

By today’s standards, this sentence seems very harsh. Remember, no one was killed in their crimes. In the earlier days of American history the justice system more closely followed Biblical principles.
The system was both swift: “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.” Ecclesiastes 8:11. And harsh: “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.” Genesis 9:6.

James Porter was executed on schedule. George Wilson was not. Shortly before the set date a number of Wilson’s influential friends pleaded for mercy to the President of the United States, Andrew Jackson, on behalf of their friend.

President Jackson issued a formal pardon. The charges resulting in the death sentence were completely dropped. Wilson would have to serve only a prison term of twenty years for his other crimes.
Incredibly George Wilson Refused The Pardon!

According to the official report, THE UNITED STATES VERSUS GEORGE WILSON (Peters 7 Report Sections 150-163) Wilson was returned to court as they attempted to “force” the pardon on him. It is recorded that George Wilson chose to:
“…waive and decline any advantage or protection which might be supposed to arise from the pardon referred to…” Wilson also stated that he “…had nothing to say, and that he did not wish in any manner to avail himself in order to avoid sentence …”

The case reached the Supreme Court. The Attorney-General made the following comments:

“The court cannot give the prisoner the benefit of the pardon, unless he claims the benefit of it… It is a grant to him: it is his property; and he may accept it or not as he pleases.”

Chief Justice John Marshall wrote the following in the decision:

“A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the individual, on whom it is bestowed, from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed…

“A pardon is a deed, to the validity of which delivery is essential; and delivery is not completed without acceptance. It may then be rejected by the person to whom it is tendered; and if it be rejected, we have discovered no power in a court to force it on him.

“It may be supposed that no being condemned to death would reject a pardon, but the rule must be the same in capital cases and in misdemeanors.”

In other words, George Wilson committed a crime. He was tried and found guilty. He was sentenced to be executed. A presidential decree granted him a full pardon. But George Wilson chose rather to refuse that pardon. The courts concluded that the pardon could not be forced upon him.

From http://members.core.com/~lpm8998/man_who_refused.htm