Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

Again you have not dealt with any precise exegetical arguments i have raised. Please deal with them.

I have not talked about hiding sin, only you have.

Well, Mark, that appears to be your problem. When we talk about motives we need to see all that God has said about Adam and Eve. While we can pick up some things in Genesis, we have God’s revelation elsewhere that will tell us without doubt what was in the heart. Then we can read Genesis with God’s view in mind. When we ignore God’s view of Adam, for example, we are prone to go off on left field.

I’m interested in you showing me from the precise grammar of Gen 3 how you can claim Adam’s motive is bad and Eve’s good. Discuss nouns, verbs, word order, whatever it is that brings you to your conclusion.

I have no interest in this since I already have God’s opinion revealed in the Scripture. God rarely talks about motives but when He does, we need to pay attention. I am confident that God knows Adam’s heart and that God’s assessment will never be wrong and I am confident that the Genesis account will not contradict what God reveals about why Adam did what he did. I have a lot of things on my plate and discussing the grammar on this one is of no interest to me since God already revealed the truth. My time is better spent on the very important things that take a lot of work and are important for our own edification and our own salvation.

I’m not denying Eve was deceived, we agree on that. What we are discussing is the precise grammar of both how Adam and Eve respond to God.

Again God has already revealed the nature of why Eve sinned. She did not sin with rebellion in mind with her eyes wide open, but rather from deception and when we understand this, we can see that a woman who had been deceived with her non-deceived husband at her side could have had a bone to pick with the one who could have corrected her. Her statement that she sinned because of the serpent’s deception was affirmed by God and God’s affirmation and His mercy-ing Eve by bringing the Messiah through her is the revelation that is the key importance. I am not interested in going further although with any passage we can dig deeper and spend time that could be spent on other things. Since my time is extremely limited and since we already agree that Adam sinned with his eyes wide open and he was not deceived and Eve sinned through deception then it is time to move on.

Is there anything in those verses that show they are blaming another (and thus denying their own involvement).

Here are the facts. Eve did not mention Adam’s name while Adam directly mentioned God and the woman. Eve did not blame Adam. Adam blamed Eve. God did not accept Adam’s excuse. God confirmed that Eve was indeed deceived as she claimed and God cursed the serpent as a result. Eve was affirmed in her statement. Adam was not. Only one acted out of rebellion and we already know that from other Scriptures.

So unless you can “prove” from the grammar that Eve was blaming Adam, there is no need to discuss blame shifting. Both did it but only one was affirmed by God that their excuse was valid.

We are both agreed that Adam blame shifted. Where we disagree is with Eve. I have shown exegetically, using the precise grammar (and the parallel construction with Adam’s response) how one cannot say Adam is blame shifing and not Eve.

I have not said that Eve was not blame shifting. What I said is that Eve’s claim was true while Adam’s was not. Mark, you are so frustrating in that you keep claiming that I am saying something that I am not saying. Honestly, why do you do this? Are you too busy at school that you have to skim what I write and therefore you go by your “feeling” and not by the “facts”? Or is it possible that your mind is so closed that you have decided for me what I believe and nothing I say can change your decision for me? Or what is it?

As yet, you have not touched on either of those verses. If you believe Adam blame shifted, tell me how you came to that conclusion exegetically from what he said. Discuss word order, grammer etc. Then do the same with Eve. After that, we can discuss other Biblical references to both Adam and Eve.

Give me a break, Mark. We both agree that both of them blame shifted. What we appear to disagree on, or maybe you just haven’t made yourself clear on, is God’s agreement or disagreement with the claim of blame. So let me ask you. Did or did not God find the serpent blame-worthy? Did or did not God curse the serpent for deceiving Eve?

“All I did was point out that Adam blamed both God and his wife, both of whom he knew were not to blame. ”

Here is what i mean. You stated this, but you have not shown exegetically from the Hebrew why you come to this conclusion. What in the Hebrew makes you believe this?

Who cares? It is a mote point and we both accept the fact that Adam blamed his wife and if you don’t think that Adam also blamed God, I don’t care. It is not worthy my time to put in the effort to teach you anything here. My time is better spent with things that really count and whether you agree with me or not isn’t of any concern to me. I have already proven my point from the Scriptures that God accepted Eve’s claim of blaming the serpent for his deception and God planted a curse on the serpent because of it. God did not accept Adam’s claim of blame.

Or to put it another way, what grammatical hints give emphasis or illusion that Adam is blame shifting?

We both agree that Adam is blame shifting so going into the finer points of Hebrew is of no interest. Just keep it to yourself and put your arguments on your own blog.

And thus, what in the Hebrew makes you conclude that Eve had pure motives?

I have already told you and you don’t believe me. God accepts Eve’s testimony and by the testimony of two (God + Eve) God curses the serpent. Deception is not outright rebellion and no place in the Scriptures does God ever question Eve’s motives as one of rebellion. That’s it. You either accept that is my argument or you do not.

“If you believe that God cursed the woman, you will have to prove it from the grammar.”

I don’t believe that God cursed the woman. Nor do i believe God cursed the man. He cursed the serpent and the ground.

Good then you will also have to agree that God cursed the serpent because of what he did and God cursed the ground because of what Adam did, but God did not curse anything because of what the woman did.

But just a snippet for after you deal exegetically with my other comments, here is one small grammatical use to show that Eve is being punished. There is a very clear infinite absolute used in God’s words against Eve. An infinitive absolute functions to give an emphatic expression. So something God saids to Eve is grammatically emphasised- but we can deal with that later.

Nope. God does not “hint” at punishment. He was outright and forward with the serpent and with Adam. He clearly stated that the effects of the curse are because of their actions and God does not hint or beat around the bush but is direct and forceful. To think that God was not direct with the woman and “hinted” at a punished and “hinted” that it might be because of something that she did, is reading into the text. It would show that God has no interest in being direct with the woman. He only cares to be direct with the serpent and the man because these are the most important, eh? And surely according to your belief God “hinted” through the grammar that the reason he (hint-hint) brought these punishments against the woman was because (hint-hint) she……?? And then after He hinted about her punishment and He hinted for the reason that He was punishing her, He blessed her by bringing the Messiah through her?

Sorry but you can always put your reasoning on your own blog and I am sure that you will find a few people who care to read about God’s hints and more hints and why God then blessed her without hinting about His blessing when He only hinted about her punishment. Oy vey! Makes my head spin.

Now on to more important matters.