Tiffany

yes, they were my words. which were followed by

however, I think it is much much much much much (can I emphasize this more?) more accurate to talk about in terms of submission, not authority. Just give those a glance, and then if you want we can continue from there. If you were just asking a clarifying question without wanting dialogue that is fine too.

Me from post 323 :I am going to perhaps confuse things here and say that the husbands authority isn’t a trump card. In fact I would like to ignore husbands for minute. I would put that the issue of submission between husband and wife isn’t primarily about resolving conflict. Looking at the church’s submission to Christ it doesn’t seem that solving a fight is even a consideration. Rather as His bride it is the churches desire to serve Him, please Him, become more like Him (and yes follow His commands, but that should be a delight, not a forcing of the will). So my observation is that if you have gotten to the point where a trump card is needed that both husband and wife have already screwed up. That neither are operating by the rule of Christian love, that the husband isn’t loving and sacrificing as Christ did and that the wife isn’t seeking to submit (honor, please, etc) as the church. Now in human relationships the likelihood is that they are going to screw up at some point and then you come up to this idea of a trump card and the husband taking authority, but I think this is a symptom of something already gone wrong. So of course if the husband uses said trump card it is going to hurt both him and his wife. (I expect that you are going to disagree rather strongly with this idea of submission. I am not trying to lay blame or suggest specific sin on the part of anyone here. But rather explain how I don’t see “can the husband use his trump card to take authority” to be a question that has to be answered if we correctly understand other things first.) (end quote of myself)

Basic summary of my ideas is that a wife should submit 100% to their husbands in all things that are not *truth* which is outside of them. By truth that is outside of them I mean the husband cannot declare what the wife is to believe. Universal truth is a direct consequence of God’s being and attributes and He has given us the means to learn much of it and it is an authority (the universal truth) over and above and outside that of the marriage relationship. There is obviously much however that falls outside the scope of universal truth, and that is where I think the wife offers this sort of submission. That this is where a large part of the oneness can occur. (of course if both are Christians then there is going to be oneness on that level as they seek their Lord together, but I don’t think the idea of submission is limited to relationships where both parties are Christian.)

To state one more time for the record- my focus is that the distinction of the wives submission (vs the mutual submission that will be there if both are believers) is to reflect the way the church is to submit to Christ. So we need to learn, how is the Church to submit to Christ? What characterizes that relationship? and then once we have our answer, do that. As has been pointed out, Eph 5 focuses heavily on the oneness of Christ and the Church. So the question is, in what way are the Church and Christ going to be one after the marriage supper? In what ways am I to reflect that in my marriage? Of course an earthly reflection of a heavenly thing is not going to reflect every nuance (the levitical sacrifices gave a good picture, but not a complete picture of what was to come in Christ). That is what I think the Bible shows that marriage is to do- reflect the truth of the Church’s submission to Christ and reflect the truth of the oneness one Bridegroom comes for His Bride. That is why I think Eph 5:21 is completely compatible with a distinct type of submission that will only be found in the marriage relationship.