Sue

“Under people they give ’superior rank’,”

Yes, that is what I have been discussing. This is supported by the example from Shepherd of Hermas, 2nd century AD. But this is a very isolated example, and following the NT. It also could be influenced by Latin. There is no example in typical native Greek of kephale as “superior rank.”

“You cite Cyril, but fail to mention that arche also means authority aswell as source.” Do you have some evidence that arche means authority. The passage stresses kinship rather than authority.

“What you and her need to do is give a non-ambiguous citation.”

I am not trying to prove that source is the meaning. I am simply indicating that the church fathers are not monolithic. I disagree with Chrysostom.

It is simple. He thought that women were naturally weaker, and that it was self evident that women were under the husband as ruler. But he also taught many other things about marriage, that obedience on the part of the wife, was balanced by desire on the part of the husband, that this created a balance between the two, a mutuality. I am not sure that he is right on that.

I don’t think either of us can prove our position. I do know that the notion of male authority is in contradiction to the law of Christ, and needs to be examined rather seriously. I also think that compassion alone should motivate men to treat women as fellow human beings. This is not something that I have met very often in the church, but more often from non-Christians.