70 Mark,

You said:

However, why do you assume therefore that authority cannot exist? Why is it, that you actually contradict the meaning of this verb?

The meaning of the Greek verb does not force authority before one can submit. Look again at my comment #2. Now think about this. Is Paul using “submit” in a military way regarding relationships? He cannot be using it this way because it would be nonsense. You have not yet answered the specific grammar of reciprocity in the verb “submit”. All you have done is to try to use “reason” to deny it. That is because when you start out with the wrong meaning for a word that says that one must be submitting to an authority or power over them, it makes no sense to tell a master to submit to his slave. But the fact is that Ephesians 6 tells master to do to their slaves what their slaves are to do to them. It is reciprocal in nature because Paul is not using an authority base. We can understand that the slave has no authority over the master so the submission is not possible to be authority based. But the fact that the master is to act in a reciprocal way shows that Paul is talking about respectful Christian behavior not about authority based authority. Thus we can submit to our children’s needs even though they don’t have authority over us. And husbands can submit to their wives needs even though they don’t have authority over their husbands.

Just saying it is a voluntary action is nothing spectacularly enilightening. You have jumped from voluntary to therefore not under authority, which is a complete reversal of it’s use in the Bible.

Ephesians 6 blows this out of the water. To argue that submission is always because there is an authority is made nonsense by Paul’s requiring masters to do for their slaves the same things that their slaves are required to do for them. How complementarians can ignore the very next chapter really does mind-boggle me. They are sometimes so “authority” minded that they are no “earthly” good.

do you believe Church leaders have authority over you? Do they force you to obey and punish you as you describe?

Church leaders have no God-given authority over individuals and this is why it is the church themselves that are to discipline those who are sinning. It is the body that has authority. No church leader can demand submission. This is why we are told to submit to them willingly so that their work is not a grief since they are to watch over us to protect us. They can’t protect us if we refuse to submit.

The problem again seems to be that authority equals ‘demands’ or ‘forcing’ something in your view.

This is the accepted meaning of authority. In fact the very first definition of authority means:

the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

What does God’s authority mean? It means that He has the power and the right to control and to command and for dissenters He has the right to punish. What would authority mean if God had no right or power to enforce His authority? The fact that He has the power and the right to demand and then punish proves that He has legitimate authority. Where is the husband’s legitimate proof of authority?

You are using words that overstate both what comp teaches and what submission means.

Again submission is not the difference between us but it is the authority that is the difference. We submit in love to one who cannot demand our submission. Your position is that the wife submits in love but her submission is also to one who has the right to take authority over her will should she not submit willingly. He then has a “right” to make a decision without her submission. This is where we depart ways.

You need to show me how submitting voluntarily therefore means that authority is irrelevant since this seems to be the crux of your argument.

First of all there is no authority needed if the submission is voluntary. Secondly there is no authority ever given by God to the husband over his wife so we insist on legitimate authority not illegitimate authority that is a usurping of God’s authority without His permission. Since you have shown no evidence to prove that God has given husband’s God’s delegation of authority, how is it that I am to respond to a relevant authority argument when no such authority has been established? I have been arguing that proper God-given authority has “teeth”. It has the authority to punish disobedience. Yet comps appear to teach an authority with no “teeth”, which is a clear indication to me that such “authority” is not God-given.

Please stay away from words (all egals) like tyranny, force, demands, abuse, etc etc.

Fine. I just did. I have shown that there is no “authority” given to the husband that would allow for punishment of non-compliance. If this was true authority, it would be the only authority that I am aware of that has no “teeth”. Not a good sign at all, my friend.

I’ve run outta time…

I do hope that you are able to come back to answer my questions and especially to show your view of comp submission. I have given you an egal understanding of willing submission of one to another without authority that would by the very nature of an authority demand such submission. What I would like to see from you is examples of wifely submission to her “authority” that are not things that a husband would ever do for his wife. What are such unique acts of “submission to authority” life in your viewpoint? I would love to see them.

Thanks for your consideration.