Mark

Dave,

1. This is not my own interpretation. I have accepted Cheryl’s argument for the sake of clarification and am seeing where it leads. So the way I am discussing verse 15 is not my own personal interpretation, but where Cheryl’s leads if we accept that the ‘she’ is a deceived false teacher, and ‘they’ are her plus husband.

2. The two examples you provide of rebuttles are not actually appropriate for this discussion. In both instances the conditional clause preceeds the main clause. If it said, “you will be the son of God, if you turn these stones into bread” we may be able to have a discussion. Your second example makes the same mistake. As you correctly state, there are many forms of conditional clauses, so perhaps you can find one that is helpful to our discussion, and then we can discuss it further. Also interesting to note Dave, that in your second example, Matt 9:21, ‘sozo’ is also used here, but how does it translate? Not eternal salvation but “I shall be cured/healed”. This ought to at least make us think that perhaps ‘sozo’ might not be best translated as ‘eternal salvation.’ Kostenberger makes this point also. “Sozo’ has quite broad usage.

3. The verse in discussion is vitally important since Cheryl is arguing that ‘sozo’ ought to be understood as eternal salvation. If this is true then the conditional clause should have a significant impact. As I see it, you nor her have offered an acceptable resolution to this interpretation. Perhaps you can offer your own if you like. It is no good appealing back to verse 12, 13 (because first of all you assume Cheryl’s interpretation there is correct) but it also in no way shape or form actually is supported by the grammar of verse 15. What has remaining in faith got to do with coming out of deception? What has love, sanctification and self control got to do with coming out of the deception? Hardly corresponding phrases?

4. Dave of course I’m interested in truth? But why do you assume that if I don’t accept this interpretation I have no interest in truth? Cheryl constantly asked to be challenged on her interpretation for this precise reason- to get to the truth. I offer such a critique and look what happens! It is frustrating to engage like this. I highly recommend reading that 30 pages of Kostenberger just to actually sit back and realise the complexity of this verse. An overly confident approach to this does nothing but show ignorance of the history of this text.

5. Cheryl’s quote is on this page we are discussing, just scroll up to the top of the page.

Change of topic- fantastic that the Church is growing. Continue to faithfully proclaim the message of the cross to the community at Ryde Dave. And if necessary, stop blogging!!! 🙂