Dave

Hmmm, it appears I have trouble with people disagreeing with me. So far only when talking with you Mark! You gave wise advice to Lydia, that assumptions do not help our discussion. Let me say the following…

I have already done research above and beyond the ‘basic Greek grammars’. I have managed to find an extensive research paper on the word order of conditional clauses…but it does not suggest what you are suggesting. You discounted my two examples because of word order. As I said before, you need to do more than simply say “They don’t count, word order!” You are suggesting you have evidence that is specific as to why my examples do not count. Where is the evidence? Why am I still waiting for it?

I never said you were making up definitions. You want an example for Kephale? Where did this come from? Is this part of the discussion? As for the Grudem paper he actually gives evidence in that paper for kephale being used as “beginning” between persons in Greek of NT time. I assume you will fall for Grudem’s trap and believe that what egals mean by source is different to beginning or origin? Grudem is not seeking the truth.

Your definitions have only ever come from BDAG and the Oxford? We went through this before. I gave three/four definitions to your one. Your one you never gave a reference for so I could find the definition myself (though I asked for it). It was different to my Oxford definition. I am not saying you made it up or changed it, but it is very easy to quote only a part of a definition to prove a point. You showed this when you quoted some of my definitions IN PART to try and make them back up your point. Just because they said submission could be to an authority (which I completely agree with) you wanted to ignore that it ALSO clearly said submission could be to anyone.

Not sure why you want us to read the Kostenberg article but I will say there was nothing in it that I had not already considered. Second to that it is crystal clear in that article that he has brought his own agenda to the research he presents. You cite it as evidence to back up your case? He does not even talk about conditional clauses in it.

Luke 4:67 is another conditional clause…this time in your chosen order of preference! Was the only way Jesus could be ruler of all the kingdoms of the workd by worshipping Satan?

Mark, you want to make black white and white black. I have no problem with people not agreeing with me. What I have trouble with is people who are more bent on winning an argument than seeking truth. It has become very clear to me that you do not want to have a discussion where words are accepted by what they mean in the dictionary. You want to make a conditional clause say something it does not. You want kephale to not mean something that it can clearly mean.

I think I have clearly demonstrated why I do not see this discussion worth continuing. If you want to address these issues I have mentioned then perhaps we can get somewhere. I am trying to speak the truth in love. Perhaps you might not see much of either here, but I hope you can.