Dave

And so we go once more around the bush…(a Canadian saying I think)…

One is a first conditional clause, the other is a third. Before you give me a helpful link, I am aware that first and third conditional clauses are different, but how is it different and how does that difference demonstrate that the conditional clause and the main clause being swapped suddenly makes the conditional clause mean something different. This is what you stated before. I guess it does not matter because to go back to the original argument, the conditional clause does not say what you are saying it says. You still not have provided evidence for it saying what you claim, as you have added words to the clause.

As to what in 1 Tim 2:15 is hypothetical, is not the conditional clause a hypothetical? They have not yet ocntinued in faith, etc. We do not know if they will. Paul is simply stating what will happen if that hypothetical situation that he describes clearly in verse 15 occurs.

I do not think anyone has suggested that Paul has said that the husband is needed to bring the wife out of deception. Just hypothetically Mark, IF you were decieved, you might be able to get your act together all by yourself, but sometimes God uses other people in our lives to help us realise our deception and change.

I do not recall anyone saying the deception was the responsibility of the husband. I am not sure where this is all coming from.

You said, “Regarding the husband being the origin of the wife, beginning may be acceptable for Adam and Eve, but in what way are you the beginning of your wife? Obviously not the smae as Adam and Eve since your wife was not created out of you. This is where your understanding fails.”

But I told you not to go silly and look at 1 Cor 11:11. Is there a comp version of the Bibble that misses this verse? Comps never refer to it, even when you tell them it is there.

You said, “Also if you argue for a creational understanding for beginning with Adam and Eve, why do you feel you can simply change therefore what ‘beginning’ means in relation to God/Christ? I’m sure you don’t believe Jesus was created out of God stuff. THis is the problem…let’s just change the menaing all the time!”

I admit it, I don’t know what you are talking about. Can you just simply respond about the conditional clause? Why all this other sidetrack stuff? What is up the garden path that is so attractive Mark?!?!