Peter McKenzie

I would assume that you don’t hold to unconditional election – its just that it seems to me to be the natural outcome of your view. If the Father is still giving people today – and it is NOT everyone who is being given, it would seem that there is some sort of selection that determines who is being given. You haven’t explained how that occurs. I think I am going to leave this with you for now – as it now seems that we may be talking past each other. You seem to be hard pressed to prove me wrong on the unbeliever/believer/Judas thing – when it isn’t the main part of my argument. You focus on that and ignore what I have to say about the basic reading of the text – which I maintain defeats your view. I tried to distinguish between different types of believing but it feels like you didn’t catch what I said there. You say I misunderstand your view. All I can go by is what you have told me – which is that the Father is still giving people to Jesus today. I merely maintain that the careful reading of the text denies that. I am not sure if I hit a nerve with you, but the conversation is becoming slightly less than irenic, and I think it is best to leave it before it becomes personal. Thanks for the chat!