gengwall

Abby – “But what I understand Piper to be saying is that I am to allow the most precious man in my life, my best friend, lover, and the father of my children, to continue in a pattern that is harmful to his soul, his witness, as well as the Body of Christ WITH MY FULL KNOWLEDGE.”

Wow – that is so right. In fact, Piper’s call for “submission” is actually a call to be un-Christlike. Very good insight.

Mark – a very good take, IMO, on the “differences” in instruction in Ephesians 5 and how it ties back to mutual submission (and, I might add, mutual love). This part is of special note in the discussion:

“What Piper is doing is ignoring scripture when he focuses on a wife’s submission, and he puts it in a totally worldly context, one that focuses on an insititional power-sturcture, as if that was what God or Paul intended. It was not.”

Of course, we have seen such focus before in complimentarian arguments – focus on Eve’s part in the fall while ignoring Adam’s more blatant sin, focus on the twelve male apostles while ignoring all the female disciples of Jesus, focus on Paul’s supposed restrictions on women while ignoring all of Paul’s freeing words toward women and even all the women Paul used and commended in ministry, etc., etc. This one (the Ephesians 5 myopia) is especially troubling because the instructions for husbands are right there next to the instructions for wives. But even beyond the clear parallelism being employed, the section for husbands is much longer, more detailed, and more addamant, than the brief and fairly general section for wives in vs. 22-24. To ignore that, or worse, to assume that such love as described in vs. 25-32 is the default response of husbands, is blatant error. In light of such error, I find it hard to understand how Hannah is convinced “He has proved himself to me and many thousands of other believers as a faithful expositor of the Word of God.” To me, he has proved the exact opposite.

Hannah – I would love to understand your definition of “role” and how that relates to the activities of daily living that a husband and wife engage in. I see no evidence in scripture that either spouse has a unilateral “job” as it relates to the operation of the family. I therefore assume you are referring to roles on a more spiritual plane, although again, I can’t quite put my finger on any passage of scripture which outlines such a division of labor within the marriage. I am quite curious to know what my “role” is as a husband and, more importantly, what practical activities I need to unilaterally engage in to know I am fulfilling that “role”.

Cheryl – Ephesians 5 continues to be at the forefront in this conversation. I hope it will stir in you a great desire to write on that passage as we have talked about in the past.