Cheryl Schatz

Mark,

I think you were a bit sneaky though now saying Eve was somehow like Mary after Jesus return being revealed something special- or being trusted or what ever you were trying to say there. Interestingly Noah also calls God Yahweh in 9:26
“Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem…”

Mark, I don’t think that you realize that such words like “sneaky” actually come across as judging my motives. I am not going to take offense but I can’t promise what will happen if I wake up on the wrong side of the bed 😉

As far as the prophecy of the seed of the woman, there are some commentators who connect Genesis 4:1 with Genesis 3:15 as Eve’s belief that her child was the promised seed. I will only quote one reference here along with Luther:

The closing phrase of v. 1, “with the LORD,” implies that this was a statement of faith by Eve based on Gen. 3:15. This is the first use of the name YHWH by itself. The next time it appears alone is in worship by the line of Seth in 4:26.
Vol. 1A: How it All Began: Genesis 1-11. Study Guide Commentary Series

See also Luther’s rendering of Genesis 4:1 as Eve saying that she had given birth to “a man Jehovah”. This is what I was referring and believe me that I was not being “sneaky”.

It is interesting that God allowed some of his faithful ones to know Him by His name. Noah being one and Eve being another. Very interesting especially because of the promise through the woman.

Let me explain a little how i understand this and the reference with Eve calling God LORD in Gen 4. If i’m reading you right, you are saying now after i have corrected you that God somehow also revealed his name to Eve before Moses. IF we take this line of reasoning we also find he revealed himself to Noah aswell. I don’t think God did that, let’s say i don’t read it that literary.

I have no problem being corrected when I am wrong. I hadn’t actually done a study on this one, but we know that without a Bible and without God’s revealing of Himself, one cannot know Him and His name. I am sorry that you don’t take the Bible as literally as I do. At least you cannot call me a liberal because of the high view of Scripture that I hold to.

Think about this. When was the ‘torah’ written? Moses wrote it after God had revealed his name to Moses. Now you rightly pointed out earlier that God had never revealed his name before then, so what’s going on here?

He had not revealed Himself by this name to Abraham, Isaac, etc but since we must allow Scripture to correct us, He did reveal Himself to Eve and Noah by His name.

I think Moses the author of these books is simply using the name Yahweh revealed to him and inserting it into the text that he is writing, so that we have references to Yahweh before Yahweh is even revealed.

Nah. That would be wrong to add it into a direct quote of Eve’s. If you can have a man noodle with quotes then what else has been noodled with by Moses. Nope, I don’t buy it.

I think this makes much more logical sense. Moses is simply using the name he knows when under the inspiration of the spirit is writing Genesis, therefore he can rightly insert it into the text.

Now you are claiming that the Holy Spirit put words into Eve’s mouth that she didn’t say? That the Holy Spirit is guilty of noodling with the text? No way. I don’t buy it. Honestly these are the kind of answers that I would expect to be credited to “liberal egalitarians”. Are you sure that you actually think that it is okay to noodle with the quotes and then blame God? Or are you just trying to pull my leg to see if I would agree with you and end up more liberal than I claim? I don’t hold to that kind of Scriptural addition. It is God’s Word. He said that we are not to add to His Word or take away from it. It is a very serious sin.

Now about Eve. I’m not charging her with sin before the fall. I believe the bible here that sin entered once they ate the fruit. So what am i to make of the verse in Proverbs that talks about adding to Gods words.
First of all we need to differentiate which words. Is it God’s actual spoken words? Is it his written words?

The Bible is God’s Word. The book of Revelation takes God’s prohibition and makes it apply to the entire book Rev. 22:18. It wasn’t just the quotes from God Himself but the entire book, which of course is God’s word.

What is the covenantal framework? Obeying God’s commands and live- disobey and be exiled basically? Therefore i think that proverbs here is referencing the written word of God, the ‘torah’ as this is the covenantally revealed ‘word of God’.

Are you seriously trying to say that it is perfectly okay to add to the words of the LORD God if He speaks to you, but not okay if someone writes His Word down??? You are kidding, right? Sounds like the hiss, “Did God actually say that you can’t add to His spoken word or did He really say that it is only His written word that you can’t add to?”

As far as getting into the covenantal theology, let’s leave that aside for this blog. It is outside the scope of this subject and I highly doubt that those theologians who believe in this brand of theology would be willing to sign on the dotted line to agree with you that men can add to God’s spoken words without God’s judgment. It comes across that God didn’t really care much for His spoken words just the ones that got written down. But when we see the 10 commandments given to Moses, we find that God spoke them and wrote them down showing that His speaking and His writing and equal. God’s Word is His Word.

So i see Eve as being described by the writer of Genesis, giving subtle grammatical hints at what was about to happen. She did not add to the word of God in terms of the proverbs verse because that must be understood covenantally.

That is the most creative disregard for God’s command in Proverbs that I have ever seen. Go ahead and tell this to God in the judgment. I am not planning to stand next to you in case you get a lightning bolt.

She was deceived by the serpent and led into sin. I do not see this as though women are somehow more easily deceived or anything like that. Eve simply chose to listen to her own desire rather than God’s.

Whew, at last some things that I can agree with! Thanks, Mark!!

Eve was indeed deceived by the serpent and in her deception she fell into sin. I am so glad that you don’t see women as more easily deceived because of the serpent lied to Eve.

However I don’t agree with this:

Eve simply chose to listen to her own desire rather than God’s.

Eve didn’t “listen” to her desire, she listened to the lie. This is the power of deception – it causes you to act in unbelief. Eve no longer believed God’s word and the lie now became the truth to her. It was not the lie or just her desire that made her eat. It was “the truth” that she now embraced. Funny how many cults call their religion “the truth”. It is the old satanic lie once again that takes deception and dresses it up as the truth to be held to and embraced.

Let me make one last point. I DO NOT SEE THE CHURCH AS ONLY A BUILDING. Is that clear enough for everybody.

Then what has a building got to do with the prohibition? Is your statement that the church is not “only a building” mean that the church is a building plus the people? Or is the church nothing to do with a building at all? Could you please clarify where a church building stands?

And also Cheryl, how can i be a traditionalist and a liberal. BY definition liberals reject tradition????

By definition liberals take texts that have no relation to symbolism and have no interpretation in the Scripture as symbolism and they wipe away the inspired Words of God. No longer is history historical and no longer are quotes, real quotes. They can be massaged and added to until they can are something other than God intended. The interpretation then is not God’s revelation but man’s guess what God was really getting at. Sort of inspired guesses which really lift up the Sovereignty of God (or not). Note, that was Canadian late night sarcasm. Hope you don’t mind. 🙂