Mark

Hi all,

Hope you all had a great Christmas and New Year!

Cheryl i have a response for that ‘question 1’ from way back so im just gunna post it hear…feel free to move it or whatever. Please know that i wrote it really quickly so i am sort of expecting to be picked up on things i may have missed- i just haven’t got the time atm to put as much research into the question as i like. None the less i’m sure it will create some more good discussion.

Here it is…note that i have gone back and cut and pasted your original question and the follow up answers and questions….then i added my final response.

Question and Dialogue
You said
1. Is it a “sin” for a godly Christian woman to teach correct Biblical doctrine to men in the church? Yes or no? If you would answer my question in a clear manner, then we can understand your stand.
Then i answered…
1. No according to your question. I think it is a sin for a woman to hold the office of elder and pastor / teacher which involves the regular spiritual leadership and preaching of the word.
Then you responded…
So you admit that it is not a sin for a woman to teach the Bible to men in the church? Okay, then. Let me take this a step further. How many times is a woman allowed to teach the Bible to men in a church before it might become a sin? May she teach every Sunday? If not, where is the Scriptural “law” that defines the number of times a woman may teach before she enters into sin.
Then i responded…
1. I have said all along that men and women teach each other in various ways. So for example if a woman prays or prophecies (in the spiritual gift of the NT) sense then of course she will ‘teach’ a man something. However the office of elder should only be held by men. That was my point.

Then you responded…
You did not answer my questions. I am not concerned that men and women can teach each other in “various ways”. I am asking about a gift of teaching the Bible for the benefit of the body. Since you say that women may teach men, I am asking how many times is a woman allowed to teach the Bible to men in a church before it might become a sin? May she teach every Sunday? If not, where is the Scriptural “law” that defines the number of times a woman may teach before she enters into sin? Would you please answer the questions that I actually ask instead of answering questions that I am not asking? I think that my questions are appropriate because God does gift His women with the ability to teach His Word. I am asking questions about how that can possibly be a source of sin.
Okay that was a restatement of question #1. Please, Mark, I would really like an answer to my questions especially on #1.

My final response…
In order to answer these questions we need to understand what Cheryl meant by ‘teach’ and who has that resposibilty. I will show how scripture requires that the overseers are resposibile for the teaching or preaching of the word in church, and how that is different to other forms of ‘teaching’ that i believe women will be gifted in and told to use to build up the church.

I believe that scripture teaches that men are only to hold the office of an elder (presbyter, episkopos). 1 Tim 3 outlines the characteristics and resposibilty of an elder…

“The saying is vtrustworthy: If anyone aspires to wthe office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore xan overseer2 must be above reproach, ythe husband of one wife,3 zsober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, ahospitable, bable to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but cgentle, not quarrelsome, dnot a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity ekeeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for wGod’s church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may fbecome puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by goutsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into ha snare of the devil. ”

Paul also further expands on the resposibilties of the overseers in 5:17

“Let the elders zwho rule well be considered worthy of adouble honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. ”

Here we see that elders both oversee and direct the affairs, but also some, not all are responsible for teaching and preaching. This is often where the distinction is made between a ‘ruling’ elder and a ‘teaching’ elder.

In Titus 1 we again see more about the resposibilites of elders. Note again that only ‘men’ can be in this role.

“This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and pappoint elders in every town as I directed you—6 qif anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife,3 and his children are believers and not open to the charge of rdebauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer,4 sas God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not tbe arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent uor greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, vand disciplined. 9 He must whold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in xsound5 doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. ”

Here Paul further qualifies that they must be able to rebuke false doctrine by sound knowledge of good doctrine.

Now it is my opinion that since we are talking about a ‘church’ scenario and this is what the letters of Timothy and Titus are addressing (an already established church), the gifting of apostles, evangelists, prophets (Eph 4:11) are not to be understood as having the same responsibility for the ‘teaching’ and overseeing of the church as the elders do.

Therefore to come back to the original question, the ‘teaching’ I think Cheryl is implying is the ‘preaching’, therefore NO, a woman should not be fulfilling that position. That responsibility falls onto the elders of the church, who Paul very clearly indicates are to be men of sound doctrine who oversee the affairs of the church.

Now to further expand on my point, being that men and women ‘teach’ each other in various ways. 1 Corinthians 11 teaches us that women can pray and prophecy in the church. Now to me, that would involve some form of ‘teaching’ to men in the congregation. However it is not the same ‘teaching’ as to those who are called and gifted to be elders of the church.

Also in relation to the ‘prophecy’ of the New Testament, it has to be understood that we can not relate it exactly to the prophecy of the Old Testament. For example the OT prophets spoke the very words of God, with full authority, and ultimately it was recorded as scripture for us. The prophecy of the NT does not seem to function this way. Note in 1 Cor 12 Paul seperates the gift of ‘prophecy’ to the gift of ‘teaching’

“Now qyou are the body of Christ and individually rmembers of it. 28 And sGod has appointed in the church first tapostles, second uprophets, third teachers, then vmiracles, then wgifts of healing, xhelping, yadministrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But zearnestly desire the higher gifts. ”

Not only that, but the prophecy Paul describes in Corinth is one of spirit guided utterance that needs to be tested.
“Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others vweigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, wlet the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets (1 Cor 14:29- 32)

Again also note that the prophecy Paul speaks of in Corinthians is for believers not unbelievers. The OT prophets spoke a message of repentance for idolatry etc (unbelievers). This is not the same as the prophecy of the NT- the NT is for the ‘church’ to encourage and strengthen each other.

“Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign2 not for unbelievers but for believers. ” ( 1Cor 14:22)

Therefore it is evident that we should not stress to much on the continuance of prophecy of the OT to that of the NT. There seems to be variable differences. Paul expects woman to be gifted in this way and allows them to use that gift. However the gift of elder is only ever spoken of in relation to men, and men should only be in a position of oversight of the church and the teaching and preaching of the word.

Cheryl, now in relation to me showing you where a ‘law’ is that tells us how many times a woman can teach, I hope you can see that I have no intention of answering this question because it is not what I have said. What I am saying is this. The ‘teaching’ or ‘preaching’ of the word must only be the responsibility of the elders who the bible says are to only be men. I believe women may ‘teach’ in the sense of prayer and prophecy and singing etc but this teaching and gifting is different from that of the elders.

Look forward to your comments/questions