Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

If you wish to do that then 1 Cor 12 is a far better text to discuss rather than Eph 4. To ignore the way Paul has correlated the two until someone picks you up on it is not very good.

I haven’t ignored it at all as the purpose of talking about a “teacher” is not about how there is a common function with “pastor” but how a woman can be a teacher without having to be a pastor.

I understand that there is no word ‘office’ listed in the greek. It is helpful however to use a term such as it to portray accurately the Nt teachings.

Actually using such a term distorts the NT teachings which show that there is a common “class” of Christians. All Christians are brothers in Christ and no one can lord it over another and because leaders are to be servants, there is no such thing as “offices” which would divide the body into clergy class and laity. Christians are one class not two.

You said:

For example there was an apostolic office, which not all apostles were given. Let me explain, the twelve had an apostolic ‘office’ as did Paul, which had certain authority in establishing the early churches, yet an ‘apostle’ were people who saw the teachings and works of Jesus.

There is no apostolic “office” that was given to the 12. Rather these ones were chosen to be witnesses to the resurrection and were held accountable for the doctrinal foundation of the church. As foundation stones everyone gave up their life as the servants of the church except for John who was used in a special way by Jesus. No other apostle had to see the works of Jesus except for the 12.

For example when the disciples replaced Judas, they chose someone who had been there from the beginning. So there is a distinction between an apostle( someone who was there from the beginning) and the apostolic ‘office’.

You are adding the term “office” when it isn’t there. Apostles are “gifts” not offices. An office is something that can be vacated and filled by someone else. A gift is not vacated and someone else gets your gift when you die. There are no “offices” to be filled in the NT. This is something added by the Nicolaitans and the Hierarchy of Rome who created offices and clergy/laity divisions. But in the Scriptures you do not find such a division.

So i have no problem talking about an office of ‘elder’ as it is helpful in translating the NT teaching accurately.

There is where you have a problem seeing outside of your “office” and “hierarchy” box. The NT has no offices and the leaders were the greatest servants completely destroying the concept of “office”.

You said:

Again i never said that an elder is a pastor. What i did say is that they both are told to ‘shephard’ the church.

Really? You pointed to Ephesians 4:11 and tied it to 1 Timothy 3:1. There is no problem with people “shepherding” but there is only one gift of “pastor”.

A pastor in my opinion is an elder with the gift of teaching.

But all elders are supposed to be teaching, so what is the difference between an elder and a pastor if you are not saying that an elder is a pastor?

Do you believe that a pastor is seperate in responsibility than an elder? DO you believe women can be elders?

Once again the issue is about teachers and about pastors. We can discuss elders at another time. A pastor is listed as a separate gift and an elder is one who takes on a work. An elder is never listed as a “gift” but a responsibility by those who desire the work and who are qualified to do the work.

Do you believe that God can gift women as pastors? Or do you believe that God is limited in His work of giving out His gifts? Are you willing to answer this question that has been posed to you many times or are you going to bypass it one more time?