A. Amos Love
Active 2009–2012
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Hey all…
Speaking about Grudem… He is sharing his wisdom today, Sat., via Justin Taylor at TGC.
“Complementarian Decision-Making as a Couple”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/
“…. Even though there will often be much discussion and there should be mutual respect and consideration of each other, ultimately the responsibility to make the decision rests with the husband. And so, in our marriage the responsibility to make the decision rests with me.
This is not because I am a wiser or more gifted leader. It is because I am the husband. God has given me that responsibility. It is very good. It brings peace and joy to our marriage, and both Margaret and I are thankful for it.”
…”The biblical ideal is loving, humble headship and joyful, intelligent submission.”
Wow! Now promoting -.”Joyful, Intelligent Submission.” Sounds irresistible…
Thought some folks might like to reply. And advance the conversation. 😉
Cheryl
Good stuff. 😉 😉
Hi all
Seems The Gospel Coalition is at it again today.
“Can Jackie O Teach Us to Be Good Complementarians?”
What???
Here’s the link in case anyone cares to comment.
You never know who’s lurking and questioning this stuff. 🙁
Oh Yea – They have banned me from this site – I’ve gone thru three cyber names.
I’m running out of email addresses. 😉
Kristen
You might want to check out this site.
They wrote an interesting post on “The Salsa.”
*Salsa Dancing Our Way to Complementarianism*
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/09/01/salsa-dancing-our-way-to-complementarianism/
When they run out of “Bible answers” they have these nasty habits of cutting people off, deleting the comments, or going on vacation. 😉
They are not really interested in an honest debate or disagreement.
He couldn’t handle your passion, fire, and knowledge.
Hi Kristen
How did you get on this blog? Didn’t we connected over at Baptist Women?
Hi gengwall – It’s been awhile.
Too bad you didn’t get a chance to post your comment.
“It takes two to Tango” 😉
Interesting take on… “the Salsa”
“is all about the woman and making her the centerpiece of the dance.”
Yeah – they closed the comments. Vacation???
I’m actually surprised they stayed open as long as they did.
And attempted to answer all the commenters – especially KR…
She was really well spoken – Especially when she said…
““What you are doing is making husbands into little demi-Christs in the home, with the wives in the place of humans and husbands in the place of deity.”
😉
Doesn’t seem like anyone was coming to the defense of his idea of “male leadership.”
Cheryl – Anyone
Thought someone might like to respond to this blog post. 😉
The Gospel Coalition
Pure Church – THABITI ANYABWILE
Fellas, Take the Ladies Salsa Dancing!
“…Besides being fun, you’ll have a wonderful model for male-female relationships in marriage. Here’s what I learned:
- The entire dance depends on male leadership. There is no dance if the man doesn’t lead.”
And much more… on complimentarians…
Seems to me to be a very ugly comparison. 🙁
Oy vey!!! 🙁
Be blessed… And be a blessing…
Darren
You write…
“lets be very careful about bending and twisting the Word of god”
Was wondering…
The “Title” that Piper has today – “Pastor/Reverend/leader”
is this a “Title” or “position” in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many people… have the “title” Pastor/Reverend?
In the Bible, How many people are… “called” Pastor/Reverend?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a Pastor/Reverend?
In the Bible, How many congregations are…”Led” by a Pastor/Reverend?
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus
Darren
No, I don’t know Piper. He might be a nice guy. He might even be saved. BUT…
You write…
“If any here are blameless they would know better than to pass this kind of judgement on someone who has done so much for the kingdom”
That’s kinda true. I’m certainly not blameless. 🙂
And Piper has done much for the kingdom – some good and some very very bad.
But Piper “takes” a position of Elder/Overseer/Pastor/Reverend. 🙁
In the Bible, an elder who is to be ordained an Overseer – He “must be” blameless.
Why did Paul give qualifications if not important? Very tough qualifications. Yes?
The Bible talks about “overseers” and **qualifications** for elders to be “overseers.”
You can’t have one with out the other – Can you?
1 – A bishop (overseer) then *must be* **blameless**… 1 Tim 3:2 KJV
2 – For a bishop (overseer) *must be* **blameless**… Titus 1:7 KJV
**Hmmm? “Overseers” *Must Be*…
That *must be* is the same Greek word as: …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
Seems to be a small word – but very important. Yes?
*Must Be* is Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
“Overseers, *must be.* Hmmm? Very important or…?
**Blameless**… How important is this word?
Strongs #423 – anepileptos – inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.
Thayer’s – that cannot be reprehended, (cannot be, rebukable, reprovable,
cannot find fault) not open to censure, irreproachable.
Dictionary – Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.
Synonyms – faultless, guiltless, innocent, irreproachable, spotless, unblemished.
1 Tim 3:2 ASV – The bishop therefore must be without reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NIV – Now the overseer must be above reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NLT – For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against.
How many, who honestly examine themselves,
Seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “overseer?”
And if Piper can see himrself as **blameless:** Is that pride?
And no longer without fault?
Seems Piper was dealing with several speicies of pride. (His words.)
This looks like “species of pride.” He believes he “qualifies.” He is * blameless.*
If he’s NOT blameless, shouldn’t he remove himself from that position. 😉
And be a good example to the flock.
Jesus loves me this I know…
Found a couple of sites blogging about “Women in Ministry”
Thought you all might enjoy reading and commenting.
I know I enjoy your thinking and your comments.
1 – Introduction to the Role of Women
http://prodigalthought.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/introduction-to-the-role-of-women/#respond
2 – Scot McKnight makes a Case for Women in Ministry
http://newleaven.com/2010/05/29/scot-mcknight-makes-a-case-for-women-in-ministry/#comments
P.S.
NO one ever “Planted a Church.” Hmmm?
Waneta
You ask…
“Could you describe how you think churches ought to operate?”
First off – Which “Church” are we talking about? 😉
1 – “The Church of God.”
2 – the church of man.
It seems from your writing and thinking process
you have spent a lot of time researching and teaching about
the horror of male-dominance, domestic violence, and abuse. Kudos.
You really know what you know, and you’re passionate about it.
I’m thinking you’ll also have to do that with the word “Church.”
I suffered thru “Spiritual Abuse” from “Men in Power.”
I was taught, some, men with “titles,” where there by God, for my protection.
I was taught, some, are “God Ordained Authority in the church.”
And I needed to **submit** to “God Ordained Authority in the church.”
If not – I was bad, I was in rebellion and I was in trouble with God.
I was not to say much, disagree with, or “Touch God’s Anointed.”
I was allowed and encouraged to – Pray, Pay, and Obey…
And I believed them. Oy Vey!!! 🙁
Of course, with God, there is always a benefit… 😉
The “Spiritual Abuse” drives you to Jesus… 😉
And you learn, you can get it from Jesus, directly.
You become a “Disciple of Christ.” And learn from Him.
NO longer a “disciple of man.” You need NO?MAN teach you.
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee:
1 John 2:26-27
These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and, **ye need not that any “man” teach you:**
“Disciple” means, learner and student.
“Disciple of Christ” means, a learner and student of Christ. 😉
Now… about this word “Church.”
You might already know what “Church” means for you, BUT, if not…
You might want to get before God and hear from Him yourself,
about this very important word “Church.” And what it means to Him.
NOT “The Traditions of Men” we have seen and been taught.
For a long time I was in “bondage” in the church of man.
In “the Church of God” there is “Liberty.” Glory!!! Thank you Jesus. 😉
If you want to know what this word ”Church” means for you?
Look up the definition in the Greek, look up the root words. Ek, and Kaleo.
Go to the computer, print out every verse that has the Greek word “Ekklesia.”
Read the verses, over and over again, Pray, ask God, What does this mean, “Church?”
IMO – The best way is “Get It” for yourself, from Jesus. Then NO ONE can take it away.
I’ll give you a few hints about “church” that I “noticed” to get you started.
In the Bible, I found…
NO one ever went “To Church.”
NO one ever joined “A Church,”
NO one ever applied for “Church” membership.
NO one ever “Tithed” to a “Church.”
NO one ever brought their friends to “Church.”
NO buildings with Steeples and crosses called “Church.”
NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews. 😉
IMO – Throw out all you think you know about “Church.”
Start over like you’re hearing the word for the first time. Because…
Jesus warned us about “The Traditions of men” that make “Void” the word of God.
KJV – Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
Where people go sunday morning is NOT “The Church of God.”
It is a 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation.
Should we call a $ Corporation “the Church of God?”
Most of what goes on sunday morning is NOT in the Bible.
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus
Waneta
You ask…
“Could you describe how you think churches ought to operate?”
“More like the Quakers do?”
From the little I know, I do like what George Fox and the “Quakers” had to say.
Everyone has the inner light – Jesus. No Titles. No paid Clergy. Only brethren.
“All” can, and are expected to, participate in the meeting. 1 Cor 14:26.
Of course their beliefs got a lot of them thrown in prison. Some paid with their life.
“Christiandumb” is often a bloody sport. 🙁
Especially…
When you challenge the “Traditions and Doctrines of men” in power.
When those with “Titles” and “Position” see their “Power, Profit, and Prestige,
being questioned and diminished by us “lower” class christians. Ouch!!! 🙁
I think, in the beginning, “Quakers” was a dirogatory term.
When they came together “ALL” would wait on God.
When a believer heard from God, sometimes, they would begin to “quake” or tremble.
The official name is, “The Religious Society of Friends.“
Jesus said, “I no longer call you seservnts… I have called you friends. John 15:15
begun by George Fox in England. Goggle it. You’ll find lot’s of info.
IMO – the downside is they turned it into another sect and denomination. Oy Vey!!!
Don’t know how much of “Jesus” today. Seems a lot of “Social Justice” stuff.
I’m still looking for and desireing to be with Jesus.
Looking unto Jesus
the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame…
Heb 12:2
Waneta
Well said…
There is no excuse for abuse.
“Verbal unkindness” is abuse. 🙁
You also write…
“Pastors, clergy, faith leaders are the #1 perpetrators of domestic violence against their family members–especially their wives. Law enforcement is 2nd. (Law enforcement used to be #1, but in recent years faith clergy have surpassed them.)”
My attention has been on; Pastors, Clergy and Faith Leaders
as the #1 perpetrators of “Spiritual Abuse.”
In my experience…
Pastor/Leader = exercise authority = lord it over = spiritual abuse = always
Titles become Idols. (Ezek 14:1-7)
Pastors become Masters. (Mat 23:10 KJV)
Was wondering – Where can I find the “official stat’s or rankings” showing
Faith Leaders as #1 perpetrators of domestic violence?
Blessings and enCOURAGEment with your efforts
TL
you write…
“They are different persons, but so united in will, power, and authority that they cannot be differentiated on those things.”
No longer using the term “persons” to describe God.
Persons sound so, ahh… HUMAN. To much like me. UUUGGGHHH!!! 😉
God is Spirit… God is Love… God is Light… God is “ONE”
De 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is “ONE” LORD:
Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is “ONE” Lord:
Gal 3:20
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one,
but God is “ONE.”
But “persons” sounds too much like HUMANS. AAARRRGGGHH 😉
TL
Still think there’s more than, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, being “in unity” and “equal.”
“ONE” is also a name of God. Hmmm?
TL
Maybe!!! 😉
Cheryl
I didn’t know God’s name is “ONE.”
I always thought God’s name was Andy…
An..dy walks with me…
An…dy talks with me…
An..dy tells me…I am His own…;-)
Cheryl
Seems you like the word “equality.”
And, I’m stuck on the word “ONE.”
“Equality” is an excellent word.
Dictionary – the state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities.
Recently, I’ve been looking, and asking, about the word “ONE” in the scriptures.
“ONE” seems to carry a different flavor, NOT the same as “equal.”
Not quite sure, don’t have anything definite yet, still searching,
BUT, I’m seeing and thinking there is more to “ONE” then a single digit.
Like… “ONE” day I noticed that “ONE” of God’s names is “ONE.”
Zec 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:
in that day shall there be “ONE” LORD, and his name “ONE.”
This “ONE” in Heb. is echad. Seems to denote a plural “ONE”
Echad – from TWOT. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
Echad stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that ONEness.
Jud 20:1
Then all the children of Israel went out, and the congregation
was gathered together as “ONE” man…
Jud 20:11
So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city,
knit together as “ONE” man.
Ezra 3:1
And when the seventh month was come,
and the children of Israel were in the cities,
the people gathered themselves together
as “ONE” man to Jerusalem.
And in Christ we **ARE** “ONE.” Hmmm?
Ga 3:28*
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female:
for ye are all “ONE” in Christ Jesus.
We already **ARE** “ONE.” Hmmm?
What does that signify? If anything? BUT maybe…
And in John 10:16…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear my voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
Hmmm? One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
Any “ONE” – thoughts?
just wondering…
John Piper said…
“I see “several species of pride in my soul” that, while they may not rise to the level of “disqualifying me” for ministry, grieve me, and have taken a toll on my relationship with Noël and others who are dear to me. ”
Hmmm? “several species of pride in my soul”
Hmmm? “may not rise to the level of disqualifying me for ministry”
Would like to know, if anyone has a reasonable answer,
“How many,” species of pride, does it take to “disqualify” Piper,
or anyone with the “Title” and “position” of pastor/leader?
Seems one of the qualifications for elder/bishop is “Blameless.” Oy Vey!
Paul didn’t say “they” can grow into being blameless.
To be ordained bishop “they” must “be” blameless.
Titus 1:6 **If**any be blameless…
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless…
If an elder/bishop is no longer “Blameless” – “species of pride,”
Now what?
TL
You write…
“Every member of the Body of Christ is and should make themselves available to God to be used in any of the giftings/manifestations of the Holy Spirit as the HS so leads. ”
I find no “Fault” with your explanation. I really like them. 😉
I guess it’s my “fault” for not asking the question properly.”
Do you think a women should have the “Title” and “Position” of
“Pastor/Elder/Leader/Authority/Master?”
Lifting themselves above, and seperating from, the rest of ”The Body?”
Becoming a “Special One” just like the “Men” who are seeking “Glory?”
Seeking; Power, Profit, Prestige, Recognition, Reputation, and Honor?
Jesus said, if I honor myself my honor is nothing. John 8:54
I don’t believe “so called” men “pastor/leaders” are setting a very good example.
Why be like them?
“Titles” give you power, prestige, honor, etc, whether you want it or not.
I’m also an “Every member of the Body can Minister” kind of believer.
Even those “we think to be less honourable” have been a great blessing.
You know – Those we wouldn’t think of having spiritual discernment.
BUT GOD, has a better idea about that… 😉
God gives more abundant honour to that part of the body “we think to be less honourable.”
1 Cor 12:22-24
Nay, much more those members of the body,
which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
And those members of the body, which
“we think to be less honourable,”
upon these we bestow **more abundant honour; ** (that must be a misprint)
and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
For our comely parts have no need:
BUT?GOD hath tempered the body together, (without “my” help. Oy vey!)
having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
“Pastors?” teach a lot about “obey your Leaders” and “chuch authority,” but,
NOT much teaching or “examples to the flock” of
submitting one to another, and esteeming others better then themselves.
Eph 5:21, Php 2:3.
Jesus always has a better way. nah, the only way.
P.S. You don’t really have to answer the questions.
Just my rant for the day. 😉
Cheryl
Love your reasonings and answers to tuff questions. 😉
Appreciate your efforts dealing with “Truth” and “Cults.”
Learned a lot here, from you and others who comment.
And I also agree God’s giftings are available for all.
In Christ, we are “All” “ONE” – Neither Male nor Female.
NOT equal – “ONE”
Why settle for “being equal?”
“Equality” looks good to the carnal mind.
“ONE” is what we are in Christ.
In Christ – “Male and Female” do not exist.
“ONE”
IMO – The problem is, and has always been, with
“The Corrupt $ Religious System” of the day. 🙁
Blessings…
TL
Great explanation of how “the body of Christ” operates. Love it.
Think I’ll “borrow” it in the future. If you don’t have any objections? 😉
But you didn’t answer the question asked…
TL
Just wondering…
Do you think women should/can be an “Elder/OverseerLleader/Authority?
TL
Thanks – BUT.
Just “ONE” correction? Glory!!!
I thank God for the women in my life…
If it wasn’t for women – I wouldn’t know I had any faults at all. 😉
Blessings…
Mark
Are you an elder/overseer?
Do you meet the”qualifications” to be and elder/overseer?
In 1 Tim and Titus?
Here’s a quick list of the “qualifications” for elder/oveerseer
for any that are wondering about 1 Tim and Titus.
Titus 1:6 **If** any be blameless…
Titus 1:7 For a bishop “must be” blameless…
**blameless — unrebukeable, without fault.
husband of one wife — married, male.
rules well his own house — have a family, children.
not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
not soon angry — not prone to anger.
temperate — having power over, restraining.
**holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
**just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
Not only do elders have to “qualify” but also their children. Yes?
“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”
**faithful — believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
**not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
…an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
**unruly — disobedient.
The Bible talks about bishops, and elders.
And qualifications for bishops and elders.
Can you have one without the other?
Seems to me, this problem, “male headship,” exists only
because there are a bunch of guys leading a “Religious $ System,”
who claim to be elders/overseers, rulers of the people,
who don’t/can’t even measure up to “the qualifications.”
Where I exist in Christ, outside “The Corrupt Religious System,”
you never hear the words… Complementarinism – Egalitarianism.
Brethren are “listened to” because of the Christ within each believer.
Not because of “Titles,” education, position, power, prestige, reputation, etc…
The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in me.
The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in you.
“ALL” can, and are expected to “participate,” always.
1Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine,
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
Blessings all
John MacArthur? Hmmm?
Just another reason to follow Jesus and NOT follow a man.
Ever know John Mac to be wrong before?
You can look on his own website.
“Reexamining the Eternal Sonship of Christ”
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/593
“Is it true that John MacArthur has reversed his position on
the eternal Sonship of Christ?”
If John Mac now feels he was wrong on the eternal Sonship of Christ,
a foundational doctrin of the faith, maybe he will reverse others.
John Mac is just a man.
He might not know he is deceived…but, deceived just the same.
And – God warns us about…
False apostles, many false $ profits, false teachers,
false Christs, false “annointed one’s, wolves, dogs, swine. Oy Vey!!! 🙁
And now what happens to those folks who heard and read
what John Mac said before he “reversed” his thinking.
They still believe John Mac’s error. Yes?
So could John Mac be in error on other things as well? Maybe? Hmmm?
When we “Get It Wrong” from a human who claims biblical authority…
Who will God hold accountable?
We won’t be able to “blame shift” like Adam and Eve.
We had better get “The Truth” fom God for ourslves. Yes?
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee:
Mark
Are you a Pastor/Reverend?
Feeling compassion for Piper and his family.
Feeling compassion for anyone with a family and the “Title” pastor.
Seems “Pastor/Reverend/Leader” is a very dangerous “position.”
This info is from a sites helping “Burned Out Pastors.”
http://pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statistics.php
95% of pastors do not regularly pray with their spouses.
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…………….Many pastor’s children do not attend church now
…………….because of what the church has done to their parents.
80% of pastors’ spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
33% state that being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.
33% confess inappropriate sexual behavior with someone in the church.
http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/Healing___Health.html
• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
Think there might be a problem with “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”