A. Amos Love
Active 2009–2012
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Kay
Doesn’t sound like a venture at all.
Good stuff.
“We are all heirs through the Spirit – not physical means.”
You just left off the last part of verse 17.
“if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
The suffer part stinketh.
Jesus had to “suffer,” with and by, the religious leaders of His day also.
Those were the only one’s He gave a hard time to.
Snakes, white walled seplecurs, of your farther the devil,
love the best seats, give money for all to see, long robes,
recieve honor one of another, seek your own glory,
a- ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:
b- ye devour widows’ houses
c- for a pretence make long prayer
d- ye have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith
e- ye blind guides, ye strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
f- within you are full of extortion and excess.
g- within you are full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
h- within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
i- outwardly you appear righteous unto men, but…
j- you blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside that the outside of may be clean also.
k- Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Remind you of anyone today. 😉
Kay
I agree. This verse is not saying male and female are “equal” in Christ.
I now believe this verse says, male and female “do not exist” in Christ.”
We are all “one.”
Now, what does “one” mean? 😉
“Ga 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female:
for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
LMB
Best I can figure is…
Hierarchy, titles, leadership, exercising authority, lording it over, abuse,
only exists in “The man made Religious System”
that they mistakingly call “The Church.” Which it is not.
In the USA, you go to the IRS and ask them permission
to become “a church.”
You fill out a form called a – 501 (c) 3.
When you are approved your institution is now a,
501 (c) 3, non profit, tax deductible, religious CORPORATION.
And yes I’m yelling. CORPORATION’s by law have hierarchy.
Complementarinism – Egalitarianism – only exists in “The Corporation.”
In, Jesus, He is the head of the body,
(the ekklesia, the called out ones) “the Church.”
We are all ”one” body.
We are all “one” in Christ.
Ga 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female:
for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
there is neither Complementarinism nor Egalitarianism,
there is neither Calvinism nor Arminianism,
there is neither Catholisism nor Protestinism,
there is neither leaders nor followers,
there is neither clergy nor laity,
there is neither pastors nor sheep,
and the list goes on…
All are taught by God.
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee:
Lin
“What if we never used the word ‘leader’ and instead only referred to ourselves as bondservants? Words mean things.”
Much agreement. Words mean things.
Titles and labels divide. And are the beginning of spiritual abuse.
Titles and labels say – I am, you’re not.
Titles and labels say – We are, they’re not.
Titles and labels always come with just “a little bit extra.”
Power, profit, prestige, recognition, reputation, etc.
All those things Jesus spoke against.
LMB
“Many of us fall down on that one out of fear of reprisals. In John we read several times that people were afraid to believe because they would be put out of the synagogue (9:22, 12:42). And some of the Jewish leaders wouldn’t openly acknowledge their faith and risk excommunication because “they loved human glory more than the glory of God.” (John 12:43). Speaking up against the establishment has always been a risky proposition:”
Amen. So called “Religious leaders” today fall into the snare of power and prestige.
Eventually they come to love the praises of men more then the praises of God.
Pr 29:5 A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.
Titles become idols.
Very difficult to lay down and destroy.
Found these quotes on a site talking about leadership
and what it looks like today. Anything but servants.
“Our preacher was preaching on servanthood leadership. He said one of the terms in it’s cultural context meant a servant was a steward. A steward was a manger – a boss. The master trusted everything to this “servant”. A servant was the manager of many resources. So as pastor, he was a manager – boss in the church. That’s how you get from servant to boss in the same “biblical” word. Cough cough.”
“I had a pastor one time that considered himself
to be a “servant leader”
…but I think he meant he was a leader
to those who are servants…”
gengwall
Wow, sounds very familiar, got a few scars of my own.
Kudos to you for surviving and continuing to walk with Jesus.
Many have turned aside because of the abuse.
I have seen the dangers of “Titles,” of “Pastors,” and of “leaders.”
Spiritual abuse for both the “leader” and those “being led.”
I’m not not new to “ministering healing” to those who have been abused by those who “thought they were called to be pastor/leaders.”
Folks who have been burnt, burnt out, kicked out,
or crawled out of “the religious system.”
With it’s leaders, spiritual authority, tithes and offerings,
forced attendance, and other “heavy weights” put on folks shoulders.
My personal doctrine now is – eventually…
No matter how humble one might start out – eventually…
“Leaders” = excise authority = lord it over = abuse = always
“Disciples of Christ” = servants = forsaking all = loving one another
In Mat 23:10 Jesus tells “His disciples” NOT to be called “leaders”
And none did, they all called themselves servants.
King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master, even Christ.
The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English –
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.
Today’s English Version –
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.
The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.
Jesus told His disciples not to be called “leaders” and none did.
Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
His disciples all called themselves “servants,”
none called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed “His disciples” NOT to call themselves leaders
and someone calls themself a “leader”
or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “disciple of Christ?”
Peace…
Hey all
Interesting post here on 1st Timothy 2:12-15.
NT/History blog
This is the first one – 12 – 7 – 09
Owa Tafoo Lameye
Say it out loud quickly. This weekend I drafted a nine post series on 1st Timothy 2:12-15. Now say it again. Owa Tafoo Lameye. Unless… maybe I can show all my personal cards before I get into the business. Be gentle with me. Here goes…
On paper, I’m probably somewhere between a ‘comp’ and an ‘egal’. I’m not really sure. I was raised with traditional ideas of husbandry and responsibility, but in real life, I’m a pragmatic egalitarian. To me, it’s real simple – both in church and in marriage. If a sister in Christ wants to and can do something that helps in the body, or in the family, we absolutely should want her to do it, especially if she does it well! (I feel the same way about brothers. We shouldn’t generalize. We should specialize. Most of all, we should all get our exercise!)
Hey all
Interesting post here on 1st Timothy 2:12-15.
NT/History blog
This is the first one – 12 – 7 – 09
Owa Tafoo Lameye
Say it out loud quickly. This weekend I drafted a nine post series on 1st Timothy 2:12-15. Now say it again. Owa Tafoo Lameye. Unless… maybe I can show all my personal cards before I get into the business. Be gentle with me. Here goes…
On paper, I’m probably somewhere between a ‘comp’ and an ‘egal’. I’m not really sure. I was raised with traditional ideas of husbandry and responsibility, but in real life, I’m a pragmatic egalitarian. To me, it’s real simple – both in church and in marriage. If a sister in Christ wants to and can do something that helps in the body, or in the family, we absolutely should want her to do it, especially if she does it well! (I feel the same way about brothers. We shouldn’t generalize. We should specialize. Most of all, we should all get our exercise!)
“She said the denominations are dying and maybe they need to.”
There are now thousands of denominations
according to wikipedia.
All started by “Leaders” who thought they had a better idea.
Does that sound like a “tradition of men” that Jesus warned about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
Most still look a lot like Rome.
Jesus warned us about making “the word of God”
of non effect through our traditions; Yes?
Mk 7:14
What if “The Whole Religious system,”
for the past 1700 years,
has been/is totally corrupt?
Corrupt – Dictionary
1- having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly
in return for money or personal gain.
2- in a state of decay; rotten or putrid.
3- debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.
Don’t condemn the messenger just yet.
Why was there a reformation?
Rome was/is corrupt according to scripture. Yes?
People wanted to serve and worship Jesus in truth. Yes?
Any Popes as the head of “The Church of God”
in the Bible?
Why were there Pilgrims and the Puritans
coming to the USA?
Church of England was/is corrupt
according to scripture. Yes?
People wanted to serve and worship Jesus in truth. Yes?
Any Monarchs as the head of “The Church of God”
in the Bible?
And every denomination since, tries to tweek
Romes version of doing religion.
Alway rules and regulations to follow,
NOT?found in the Bible.
Always hierarchy and Titles
NOT?found in the Bible.
Were there any congregations in the Bible “led’ by a “pastor?”
Did anyone, male or female, have the “Title” pastor?
Was anyone even called pastor?
Christiandumb… Hmmm???
Oh, you can change a few “titles,”
pastors intead of priests,
suits and ties instead of collars and robes,
Presidents instead of Popes,
but basically every denomination is still Rome.
still, “Tradition of men.”
Was “the Reformation” a dangerous detour,
another tradition, leading people away from Jesus.
“Jesus being the “head” of the body, the Church,”
and “those led by the Spirit, those are the sons of God?”
Is Religion the system, and NOT?the relationship?
Did Jesus reform “the Jewish Religious Sytem”
He etablished?
Or did He leave it?
Alison
“If we spent more time in the Word and let GOD speak that truth into us, we’d be much better off.”
Much agreement.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee.
John 18:37
To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world,
that I should bear witness unto the truth.
Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
When Jesus Himself tells you…
Alison, you are MY treasured Child.
And I love you just the way you are…
It’s priceless…
Peace…
Dave
Praise the Lord.
Lot’s and lots of comments.
Jesus warned us about “the Traditions of men.”
Those “Traditions” are powerful stuff.
They nullify the word of God. Wow!!!
Be blessed…
Mark
“adn it is heretical to think the Father was crucified on the cross.”
Oh, mmm? not so sure bout that.
John 10:38
…that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
2Co 5:19
To wit, that God (Theos) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
(Theos = Father, Son, Holy spirit,)
Col 2:9
For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Where was the Father when Jesus went to the cross?
In Him???
“Likewise the Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son not vice verse.”
Hmmm? Did the Spirit send Jesus to heal the broken hearted?
Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted…
By the way
Complimentarian and Egalitarian sounds like lawyer speak to me.
And you know what jesus thought about lawyers.
All that gnat and camel stuff. 😉
Dave
“I beg to differ Amos Love. There are Complimentarians and Egalitarians in Christ – and they are equal…and yet…different…“
Hehe. I beg to differ Dave. Don’t really care to beg but, “all things” being Egalitarian. 😉
Will you answer the question for Gal 3:28?
I still vote for “no Hierarchy in Christ” we’re all “one.”
Ga 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Does this verse say male and female are equal in Christ?
Or does this verse say, in Christ there is neither male nor female? “One.”
Has male and female put down their worldly identity
and taken another identity – Body of Christ? Hmmm? One?
I still vote for “no Hierarchy in Christ” we’re all “one.”
Neither male nor female.
Neither Complimentarians nor Egalitarians.
Neither Calvinists nor Armenians.
Etc., etc..
Cheryl
“You can never completely separate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or you no longer have the Trinity. And if you cannot do that without spoiling the Godhead, how can you possibly pick and choose such sharply divided ‘roles’ and apply them to people?”
Amen – If one is missing God is not complete.
I vote for Theos = Father , Son, Holy Spirit = God = always
Hey ya all. You’ve been busy.
Before Mark was trying to say that sometimes Paul referred to God, (theos) as the father.
So in Marks attempt at establishing “hierarchy in the Godhead” he sees theos as Father?
Guess what I’ve found? Thank you Jesus…
Sometimes Paul referred to God (Theos) as Savior, Sometimes to Jesus as Savior.
So in Marks way of understanding scripture, NOW Theos refers to the Son???
Is God (Theos = Father) our Savior? Or is Jesus (Son) our Savior?
Is God (Theos = Son) our Savior?
Or is God (Theos = Father, Son, HolySpirit,) our Savior?
Paul, in Titus, interchanges, “God (Theos) our Savior” with “Jesus our Savior.”
Titus 1:3 …God our Savior.
Titus 1:4 …the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
Titus 2:10 …God our Savior.
Titus 2:13 …great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 …God our Savior.
Titus 3:6 …Jesus Christ our Savior.
The NT consistently interchanges “God (Theos) our Savior” with “Jesus (Son) our savior.”
God (Theos) our Savior
Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.
1Timothy 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty…
Jesus our Savior
Acts 13:23
…according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus.
Philippians 3:20
…from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Peter 1:11
…into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Hmmm?
Sometimes Paul referred to God (Theos) as Savior, Sometimes to Jesus as Savior.
So, maybe, Hehe, Where it says, “The head of Christ is God,”
is not referring to the Father, but to the Son? 😉
It could say, “The Head of Christ is the Son, Jesus.”
Sorry – I still have this funny feeling that…
Hierarchy in Godhead = lord it over = abuse = always
leaders = lord it over = exercise authority = abuse = always
Titles become idols.
Pastors become masters.
Cheryl
“Sometimes I really wonder why God allows these men such control in His church.”
What makes you think that “control and minipulation” is going on in “His Church?”
Isn’t there a big difference between – the church of man and “The Church of God?”
1-“The Church of God,” (the ekklesia, us,) is purchased with His blood.
1-“The Church of Baptist” (or what ever name) (Church of Man, Lutheran, etc)
purchases us with things that are of the world. Fear, flattery, security, friends,
sense of belonging, building the kingdom of God, etc. Those things that feed the flesh.
Power, profit, prestige, salary, retirement, flattery, invitations to speak, titles, etc.
2-“The Church of God” is built and added to by Jesus. It’s His body.
I will build my church… Matthew 16:18
And the Lord added to the church daily those who should be saved. Acts 2:47
2-“The Church of Baptist” is built by man.
With programs, seminaries, conventions, crusades, tithes and offerings sermons,
guilt and commitment sermons, bring your neighbor to church sermons,
submission to authority sermons, etc.
3-“The kingdom of God” comes not with observation, it is “within” hidden.
It is the rule, the “reign,” the dominion, the goverment of God in one’s heart.
This government shall be upon Jesus’ shoulders.
3- “The kingdom of Baptist” is “without,” names on church buildings,
schools, credentials, diplomas, business cards, phone books,
written “I believes,” rules and regulations, how to dress, how to speak,
where it can be “seen.”
“…let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven;
and let us make us a name…” Gen 11:9
It is the rule, the “reign,” the dominion, the goverment of Baptists.
This government shall be upon Southern Baptists Conventions shoulders.
4- In “The Church of God” you serve one master, Jesus, and we are “one,” brethren.
The Lord is our shephered and we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
None call themselves leader or shepherd. All are one in Christ, brethren.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16
There is, One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd.
4- In “The Church of Baptist” you serve many masters,
some more equal than others.
You have hierarchy, local leaders, youth leaders, church leaders,
board leaders, district leaders, denominational leaders.
You have, leaders – followers, clergy – laity, shepherds – sheep,
And you have separation. You have some lording it over others.
You have the beginning of spiritual abuse.
There are many voices – many shepherds – many leaders.
5- When “the Church of God” comes together, meets,
everyone can participate. And is expected to participate.
Everyone is needed to participate for the building up of the body.
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine,
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:26
5- When “The Church of Baptist” meets,
only a few participate. Pastors, elders, “so called” leaders,
choirs, ushers, sunday school teachers, etc.
Most in this meeting are spectators, pew sitters,
expected to pay, pray and obey.
What makes you think that “control and minipulation” is going on in “His Church?”
I vote for, There are no “Complimentarians nor Egalitarians in Christ.
For thee are all “one” in Christ.
I vote for “no Hierarchy in Christ” we’re all “one.”
Ga 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Does this verse male and female are equal in Christ?
Or male and female do not exist in Christ? “One.”
Down with “hierarchy.” Down with “lording it over.”
Lift Jesus higher. In Christ we are one. Glory
I vote for “No Heirarchy in God” only “one.”
God is not complete unless all thee are present.
Mark
Amen
“If God has given us human analogies to help us, which he has,
let’s use them to better understand Him and his word.”
But how do we mere humans understand God’s math? Hmmm?
1 + 1 + 1 = 1
Could this math really work?
Theos = Father, Son, Holy Spirit = one = always
Is God (Theos) not complete unless all three are present?
1 shell + 1 white + 1 yolk = 1 Egg
1 Hydrogen Gas + 1 Oxygen Gas + 1 Hydrogen Gas = 1 liquid water
1 spirit + 1 soul + 1 flesh = 1 Human
1 Father + 1 Son + 1 Holy Spirit = 1 God (Theos)
If we remove the 1 shell? Do we still have an Egg?
All that is left is – 1 white + 1 yolk – But no egg.
If we remove one gas? – Is it still water?
Or two highly flamable gasses? But no liquid.
If we remove the spirit, soul or flesh – Is it still a human?
If we remove the Father, Son or Holy Spirit – Is it still God. (Theos)
Is God (Theos) not complete unless all three are present?
Kay
Yes – Good one.
“The Bible says that the Father raised Jesus,
the Son raised Himself and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus.”
It also says that God (theos) raised Him. :8]
God (Theos) raised Jesus from the dead.
Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day…
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead.
Romans 10:9 …believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead…
1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead…
The Father raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1 … and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
Romans 6:4 …like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father…
The Spirit Raised Jesus from the dead.
1Peter 3:18 For Christ …being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you…
Jesus raised Himself from the dead.
John 10:17 …I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 2:19 Jesus answered … Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Matthew 26:61 … I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
John 5:21 …even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
And these three are one. Glory….
Theos = Father, Son, Holy Spirit = always
Hmmm? Maybe some need “Hierarchy” in the God head
So they can “lord it over” others?
And they can “exercise authority” over others?
Didn’t Jesus tell “His disciples” not to exercise. ;8}
authority… Or be called leader… Mat 23:10
Mat 20:25, Mark 10:42, Luke 22:25
Hi ya all.
Ye are having way to much fun here.
Oh, and “today” I vote for “No Heirarchy in God” only “one.”
Theos = Father, Son, Holy Spirit = always
Unless of course, Jesus is the top gun. Hmmm?
Col 1:17
And he is before “all things,” (even God the Father?)
and by him “all things” consist. (even the God Head?)
Col 1:18
…that in “all things” (the God Head?)
he might have “the preeminence.”
preeminence = to be first, hold the first place.
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end,
“the first” and the last.
And could the Holy Ghost be Jesus’ Father? Hmmm?
Mt 1:18
…When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,
…she was found with child of the “Holy Ghost.”
Mt 1:20
…for that which is conceived in her is of the “Holy Ghost.”
Lu 1:35
… The “Holy Ghost shall” come upon thee…
…that holy thing which shall be born of thee
shall be called the Son of God.
Or maybe these three are one?
1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are “one.”
Mark
“Paul uses a very good pastoral technique” v – 1
“the present pastoral problem” v – 3
Can’t find “pastoral” or “technique” in the Bible.
Can you explain your idea of “Pastoral” please?
When you hear words that are not in the Bible?
don’t you wonder why we use them?
and where they came from?
Isn’t it challenge enough understanding?
the truth of the words that are written?
How much harder word’s that we make up?
Pastor Julie Pennington-Russell. She is blessed.
Doesn’t it say – all things work together for good for
those who love God and are called according to His purpose?
Sounds like God is having mercy on Julie?
Pastors? Hmmm?
What is truth is not always popular.
What is popular is not always truth.
Does anyone have the “Title” pastor in the Bible?
Is anyone called “Pastor” in the Bible?
Do Titles become idols?
Do Pastors become masters?
Didn’t Jesus tell “His Disciples” Not to be called master?
Mat 23:10
Doesn’t the Bible warn us about, and exhort us to,
“hew down “the graven images” of their (our) gods?”
Deut 12:3
Don’t we make the “Title“ Pastor a “graven image?”
“Engraven” on office doors for everyone to see.
“Engraven” on dipomas, that are hung on office walls,
“Engraven” on business cards, that are handed out,
on the Sunday morning bulletin, on the street sign,
and anyone who reads them knows who “the Pastor” is. Yes?
Is that “self-honoring” and “seeking glory?”
Seems Jesus warned “His disciples” about those things. Yes?
John 8:54
If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:
it is my Father that honoureth me…
John 7:18
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:
Has the “Title Pastor” become a “graven image?”
Micah 1:7
And all the “graven images” shall be beaten to pieces…
Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name:
and my glory will I not give to another,
neither my praise to “graven images.”
Jer 50:38
A drought is upon her waters;
and they shall be dried up:
for it is the land of “graven images,”
and they are mad upon their idols.
A land of “Titles and idols” in the heart. Ezek 14:3-7
Senior Pastors, Associate Pastors, Youth Pastors,
Single Pastors, Reverands, Right Reverends,
Most Right Reverands, Fathers, Priests, Clergy,
and the list goes on…
Are any of those “Titles/idols” in the Bible?
Didn’t Jesus make Himself of no reputation,
take on the form of a servant,
and humble Himself? Phl 2:7”
SBC Hmmm?
Religion is the system, NOT the relationship.
Praise God for all things.
Dave
Nice of you to defend and speak up for Piper.
There seems to be a strange phenomena with wife abuse.
When the wife is abused she often defends the abuser.
The police have a hard time with domestic abuse because
the wife often turns on the police when they show up.
Seems the same thing happens in”The Religious System.”
When “the bride of Christ” is abused, the abused defends the abuser.
Most in “The Religious System” don’t even know they are being abused
lied to, controlled, manipulated, taken advantage of and fleeced.
Wanted you to know I’m a male and a wife – “bride of Christ”
And I no longer defend the abusers of “the bride of Christ.”
Eph 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness,
but rather reprove them.
Hasn’t Piper taken the “Title” “pastor.”
Is that so he can control and manipulate?
Did anyone have the “Title” “pastor” in the Bible?
Was anyone ordained a “pastor” in the Bible?
Were any congregations led by a “pastor” in the Bible?
And every pastor I’ve met also had the “Title” “Reverend.”
Does anyone have the “Title” reverend in the Bible?
Do they use “Titles” to control you? Hmmm?
And create prestige for themselves? Hmmm?
Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
For I know not to give flattering titles;
in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
Job 32:21
Don’t “titles” become idols? Ezek 14:3 -7
If Pipers “Title,” is not an “idol” why not ask him to get rid of it? 😉
The “Title” pastor comes with a lot of baggage not asked for.
Power, profit, prestige, pride, recognition, reputation, etc,
Those things Jesus spoke against. Jesus always took the low place.
Humbled Himself. Made Himself of “NO” reputation. Phil 2:7
1Jo 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes,
and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Checked out Pipers website. Browsed some topics.
Found much abuse and twisting of scripture.
We can discuss with what was found, if you like.
In His Service. By His Grace.
Lin
“Having what some think is ‘authority’ or leadership over others is
a huge sin trap.”
Yes, “a hugh sin trap”
I have seen the dangers of “Titles,” of “Pastors,” and of “leaders.”
Spiritual abuse for both the “leader” and those “being led” by man.
My conclusion is the word and position of “leader” is very, very dangerous for both.
If “pastors” and “leaders” (as we see them today) are of God?
He’s not taking very good care of His shepherds; Is He? 😉
Hmmm? Wonder why?
This is info from a website helping “burned out Pastors.”
PastorCare offers support and encouragement for pastors and their families.
At PastorCare we care about YOU and we want to help.
http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/About_Us.html
According to the Francis A. Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership (2007)
• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 40% report a serious conflict with a parishioner at least once a month.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
According to the Ministering to Ministers Foundation…
• Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.
• Nearly 1 in 4 pastors experience a forced termination at least once during their ministry.
•Only 54% of pastors go back into full-time church related positions.
Think we might have a problem Lin?
70% of pastors-leaders are depressed or burnt out.
Don’t have a close friend. Hmmm?
That’s who is running the show. “Leadership?” Oy Vey!!!
That’s who is abusing God’s sheep.
I have been both abused and the abuser. It’s not pretty.
1600 pastors a month, that’s 19,000 a year, leave or are pushed out. Wow!!!
That’s a lot of broken hearts, disappointments, feelings of failure, pain, abuse.
Hmmm? “Pastor – Leader,” is this a “Title” or “position” in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?
CLC
Very well explained. I’m enjoying your writing and thought process.
Good stuff!
“heirarchal structures = tyranny”
“Frankly, it’s inevitable. Whenever sinners get placed on pedestals above everyone else, their heads get puffed up; and corruption begins. This is what happens with sinners. It’s not exclusive to men. Nor is it exclusive to complementarians. Anyone who gets reverence like that will become puffed up.”
Amen – Lot’s of puffy heads. 😉
A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.
Pr 29:5