I said: We lived in Indonesia for a few years in the late 80’s. We stayed with a pastor when I was pregnant. He stopped my husband from killing a rat because it was a common belief that the baby would have whatever deformity my husband inflicted upon an animal . … a pastor had what I secretly disdained as superstitious and animistic beliefs. I thought my faith was superior…. Nowadays I know better. They were onto something. We become like what we behold. Perhaps they went overboard with it in the material sense, but it is spiritual truth.
~
To which Paula replied:

Charis, these are very disturbing statements, because they contradict basics of the Christian faith grounded in the Bible.

We become like what we behold. You can read the biblical account at this link: Gen 30:37ff Jacob had the sheep look at spotted branches so that they would bear spotted offspring.
~
Contemplative or soaking prayer, and spiritual disciplines as I practice them are all about beholding the lamb of God that I may be transformed into His image.

2Cor 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

The bible says much about meditation but it is always meditating on God’s word or God’s principles or God himself. When I read about contemplative meditation, the instruction is not to fill one’s mind with the things of God but to empty one’s mind. One says a mantra which is a word or phrase that is said over and over and over again until one comes into a state of nothingness or an emptied mind.

What I practice sounds nothing like that. I use worship music. I focus upon the Lord and upon His Word. I speak to Him. But it has no resemblance whatsoever to “laundry list prayers” and I spend a lot more time listening to Him and resting in His presence than talking. And I hear Him.
~
I do not object to pointing out the error of the odd mystics extreme you read.
I object to lumping other fine Christians into the category of “dangerous” and “deceived” because they use similar language or attempt to reclaim lost Christian practices which the church needs.
~
Thank you for your well thought out and true post, Cheryl. Your point about not fearing other perspectives is interesting. You are not afraid to allow God to be God. You don’t have to protect Him nor His reputation. You are responsible to speak the truth in love. And I hope you are careful not to agree with the “accuser of the brethren” (I think you are).
~
Contemplate means to thiink. Spiritual formation is needed in the church which is a mile wide and an inch deep. Christians neglect really contemplating upon GOD and HIS Word and pressing in. A contemplative was a monk or nun who spent time alone with God, quiet, thinking, praying… I think I would like a contemplative lifestyle if I wasn’t married with 8 children. I would hear these stories about missionary greats who would spend 3 or 4 hours a day praying and I could never understand how they could do that and not be bored. Now I understand. Now I spend time hearing from God.
~
I read a lot. Mainly the Bible, but also lots of Christian authors. I don’t approach them looking for what to criticize or where to disagree. I am looking to learn and I find I can learn something from just about everyone.
~
I was trying to help a couple very like my husband and myself on a Christian forum (but they have been separated for a year). The husband a patriarch wannabe who could be the poster child for this post of yours, Cheryl… nothing but faultfinding toward his wife and justifying it by saying He is the “head” and the “spiritual leader”. I gave the husband links to some articles at CBMW ( Love and Respect in Marriage and God’s Tool to Preserve and Heal Marriages) and I gave the wife a link to this post on your blog, Cheryl. I really don’t care who speaks the truth, or what words they choose to describe the truth. The truth is the important thing, not the messenger. And I am not against anyone because they have a mix of truth and deception. How can I condemn them when I am quite sure I resemble that?

Lin said:

http://www.sohmer.net/Velvet_Elvis.pdf
Charis, Here is something you may want to prayerfully consider.

I had a brief look. 1. I have not read that book. 2. If I went into any of 98% of Evangelical Churches in America and took a transcript of any Sunday morning sermon or if I went to your blog with the intention to critique, I could probably find quotes to lift out to make you or any pastor sound scary (and vice versa about quotes from me BTW so please don’t take offense)

I identify with this from Scot McKnight in Christianity Today

. We believe the Great Tradition offers various ways for telling the truth about God’s redemption in Christ, but we don’t believe any one theology gets it absolutely right.
Hence, a trademark feature of the emerging movement is that we believe all theology will remain a conversation about the Truth who is God in Christ through the Spirit, and about God’s story of redemption at work in the church. No systematic theology can be final. In this sense, the emerging movement is radically Reformed. It turns its chastened epistemology against itself, saying, “This is what I believe, but I could be wrong. What do you think? Let’s talk.”

God’s will for those who are His is “unity of the spirit and the bond of peace”. Jesus prayed for us ” that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one”
I think the “oneness” Jesus prays for is not about one doctrine or one denomination, but community and love between believers of differing convictions. I have a rather unique experience of having moved around a great deal and having been a member of many different denominations around the country and a little bit of the world. I was raised Catholic. I have been a member of Baptist, Nazarene, Wesleyan, Lutheran (LCMS), Episcopal, Congregational, Dutch Reformed, Presbyterian, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ (Cincinnati), and most recently an Elim church…
I have had deep Christian fellowship with people from every one of the above mentioned churches and more…. I have fellowshipped, been in community with people who had some really far out ideas doctrinally (IMHO) but we were still able to break bread together and share our love of the Lord.
We lived in Indonesia for a few years in the late 80’s. We stayed with a pastor when I was pregnant. He stopped my husband from killing a rat because it was a common belief that the baby would have whatever deformity my husband inflicted upon an animal . A baby down the street from us was a floppy baby (hypotonia?). The parents blamed it on the dad strangling a chicken when his wife was pregnant. A Christian girlfriend said her baby was dark because she drank a lot of coffee during the pregnancy. Christians, and even a pastor had what I secretly disdained as superstitious and animistic beliefs. I thought my faith was superior…. Nowadays I know better. They were onto something. We become like what we behold. Perhaps they went overboard with it in the material sense, but it is spiritual truth. We become like what we behold. And biblically, Jacob did have the sheep look at spotted branches so that they would become spotted. (Gen 30:37ff)
I don’t believe God fits in a Baptist box.
But far be it from me to disown anyone as my sister in Christ for believing that way. 🙂

If I am disowned by the sisters here, if I am seen as someone off the deep end theologically, if you want to label me a heretic… (((((Shrug)))))).
Jesus loves me, this I know. 🙂

PS. Sorry for the tangent Cheryl. I’ll shut up now.

oops, typo, only the middle part of that last post is quoted.
the second “quote” is me
sorry

Its off topic for this thread, so I won’t press it.
I noticed on the link to the older post about “husband as priest” ( http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/11/husband-as-the-priest-of-the-home/) that
Molly commented

Cheryl, one thing I would appreciate you guys maybe doing a little more research on is the emerging church movement. I noticed in the pamphlet that came with the dvd’s that you guys are presently “anti” it…

I think it muddies the waters to bring division over “emergent church” into the debate on women in ministry. But if Cheryl wants to do so, its her call and I’m sure that she will be able to reach a niche (like yourself) who can agree with her on all of it.

I believe God’s will is “unity of the spirit and the bond of peace” even when there is strong disagreement. (I pray for that very unity in my marriage to a patriarch wannabe despite our major differences). I’m not sure GOD is as interested in “changing people’s minds” as HE is in changing their hearts.

Very Cool, Cheryl!
Rejoicing with you 🙂

Hi Paula,

Surely you can see that there are extremes under any doctrinal position? Painting with a broad brush, sweeping generalization against emerging churches bothers me. I think it was a link from your blog which went to a page critical of contemplative prayer and spiritual formation- equating them to eastern mysticism….

I pray contemplatively and it is not at all how the “anti contemplative prayer” camp represented it.
I have a mentor, a spiritual companion who encourages me toward a deeper walk in the Spirit.
I have read a book by David Benner and one by Dallas Willard… and I think they are both solid Christians, probably not doctrinally “perfect” but who is?
I have read Donald Miller and Rob Bell and enjoyed their books as well, they have a great appeal to the younger generation, they put flesh and blood on the gospel.
None of them are “dangerous evil heretics”. I consider them all brothers in Christ.

While I am at it (being “contentious” as my husband loves to fling at me), brace yourself for a sharp comment: I hope you will keep in mind the spiritual law (just as sure as the physical law of gravity)…
“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. People reap what they sow.” Gal 6:7

Sometimes the comments I read on your blog against the emergent church distress me. Personally, I think many in that movement are hearing from “what the Spirit is saying to the churches” every bit as much as those who are advocating for women are hearing from the Spirit. I think we do ourselves a disservice to assume the worst or to lump them all brethren who have a different perspective with the most extreme of the bunch.

If you say you don’t want to be condemned and branded a heretic, you don’t like it, you want your good name cleared, just be careful you aren’t dishing it out anywhere… because if you sow it, you will reap it.

I am doing a Matthew 18 work with Matt. …
Matt is not responding well to correction….
Matt
-bore false witness against me
-berate me as a heretic
-claim that he has not slandered me.
I had hoped that he would be humble enough to be willing to be corrected but as you can hear, he is not.
He is just so angry… and I appear to be his main target for his anger and frustration. ….
I am hoping that Matt will be willing to repent publicly in the same forum that he slandered my good name.

So, Cheryl, what sticks out to me is the striking parallels between what is going on between you and Matt and my situation with my husband (When Daddy verbally abuses the children, how can a Christian wife and Mommy respond?)

You said this about marriage:

I remember … asking him [God] why … he wasn’t doing anything with my husband to correct him. I heard the Lord as clear as a bell. He said that it was none of my business what he was doing with my husband. It was only my business what he was doing with me. That changed everything for me and I stopped trying to change him. … What I have learned is that we belong to the Lord Jesus and it is in his timing and in his way that we will change. Yes, we confront sin when the person is sinning against us, but sometimes the bad behavior is best left alone to only the Lord to deal with and when we walk in forgiveness, it seems to be the catalyst that God uses to start the change in the other person.

Frankly, I feel quite confident that God wants me to stand up to the sin in a way which is quite confrontational and unpleasant for my husband.

I believe that my ostensibly “respectful” and “submissive” behavior tiptoeing around his “fragile male ego” for 22 years at the expense of the vulnerable tender hearts and spirits of our children was destructive and sinful on my part. (This enabling behavior on my part was reinforced by just such teaching as your post here highlights. I thought I was being “biblical”.)

So which is it?
Is it confront sin and attempt to hold him accountable?
Or is is “forgive” “love covers a multitude of sins” and “blessed is she who overlooks an offense”?

That is so well done and biblical (as usual).
Thanks for the light shed on this Cheryl 🙂

My only reservation is lest your words be interpreted as an excuse to neglect addressing ongoing sin in the household. I believe that believers- male or female- have a Christian duty to hold others accountable for their sins against us (and against the children who are under our care). Indeed, this needs to be done with grace, mercy, and gentleness… but it needs to be done for our own good and the good of the marriage and the next generation.

It occurs to me, upon reading your post and chewing on it a bit, that women in ministry are held to a much higher standard of Christlike behavior than men in ministry. I don’t think that is a bad thing for women as it calls us higher. I wonder if it is a bad thing for men, though?

I have a mentor who is very old-fashioned about women’s roles in church… She thinks God is presently calling and anointing women to speak into the culture because men (whom HE called first) did not heed the call. She sees movements like PK as God calling men into spiritual leadership, but many did not heed the call and slid more deeply into things like porn (a rampant but unspoken problem in the church).

Every time I read your posts, I am so refreshed 🙂
So biblical and encouraging… Thanks Cheryl.

oops..
the link didn’t post:
Thoughts on Esther:
http://clay-onthepotterswheel.blogspot.com/2007/11/every-man-should-be-ruler-esthers.html

This is well said! I am trying to think if there is any example in scripture where a man or woman was called by God where the other spouse did not support them. …

Hmmmm….what do you think?

Esther was called by God in a manifestly unsupportive atmosphere
(I started blogging and my thoughts on Esther are
here )
Abigail was called by God to go against her husband. (1 Sam 25)
Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit in order to “go along with” her husband (Acts 5)

That said, I’m with you Cheryl. I am a hyper-submissive. I could not be in any ministry where my husband was going to be the enemy, on the attack, tearing me down, discounting, invalidating… I figure if GOD is REALLY calling, he has his ways… HE’ll send along a great big fish if HE has to. 🙂

I think they view the bible with a pink lens because the godly example of women leaders in the bible (the pink verses) have miraculously disappeared. After all didn’t God only use women because he didn’t have any men whom he could use? Lots of pink was used to bring this view into focus.

Sounds like the root of the “feminization of the church” which seems to be of such concern on the Forum you instigated at CARM, Cheryl. 🙂

BTW, I still hang around over there… and they are not having a continuous “Cheryl roast” any more. I think you started a very good thing, though. There are quite a few visitors and clearly, some are taking the challenge to really dig deeper into the Bible for answers… which is a very good fruit 🙂 of your ugly experience 🙁

The subject came up at the Carm forum so I was scrolling around to see your material on this. I like your research and scripture very mudh!
Exegetist over there had made a comment once that a woman’s hair is like her “esteem”. I just got my hair cut, and I feel like the “real me” has finally showed up! I am ALLOWED by GOD to fix my hair how I want to! Does that sound silly for a grown woman to say? No wonder Christianity is losing in the marketplace of ideas! The world can see the oppression of that- the world calls th control and “power over” emotional abuse- I know, I did my homework on that! Is it any wonder their marriages fail in such high numbers? They are sowing bad doctrine and reaping the whirlwind.

I’m a grown woman now. I have authority/power over my own head.
“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free” Gal 5:1

I’m so excited you are doing a series on marriage! 🙂

Good post Teknomom 🙂

Cheryl wrote:
the hatred that spews forth from his followers shows from their fruit that 1 John 2 applies.

1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Jesus has commanded us to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is not an option but a command and John goes on:

1 John 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

As far as Matt’s followers goes, they are blind sheep IMHO.
Coming into agreement with lies will sow pain into their lives 🙁
There was a time when I would beat myself up with the verses you quoted above.
I didn’t feel any love for my husband; I hated him. And he is a christian, so he is a “brother”, right? SO where does that leave me according to 1John 2:4 and 2:9?

This helped me:

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I can see, in my own life, that when I practice 1 John 1:8-9, that GOD teaches me and brings about growth as I seek to overcome sin in my life through confession, prayer, meditation upon the Word… SO in a paradoxical kind of way, when I lay my sin down at the foot of the cross, it brings me deeper in my spiritual LIFE with the Lord. I see sin in his life!!! And I am indignant, especially when it hurts my children, but I can PRAY that “that God will give him life” because I don’t know if it is a “sin unto death” or not, (and so far its not because he’s still alive)

It is the fruit of Matt’s ministry that causes his followers to rip at the sheep. As they continue to tear me down, I trust that God will use this to open many people’s eyes to the sick fruit of the hierarchical movement. When these true Christiansare sick enough of the vitriolic nature of the this entire mindset, I trust that they will leave that camp. A true Christian is one who loves the brethren and will not stand to see the attacks against a fellow Christian over a secondary issue in the church. It is indeed sobering that these folks speak evil with one side of their mouth and claim to know and love Christ with the other side of their mouth.

You and I don’t know what motivates their behavior. I have quite a lot of personal experience with people I am tempted to consign to my “unchristian” file. “For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.” 2Cor 2:15 The ones within the church walls who behave badly have a distinctly difficult “aroma” to tolerate. But can you see how even they serve their purpose? (You are the oyster and they throw sand in you. You make pearls from the sand, Cheryl.)

I really like the passage in 2Tim 2:20-26 which talks about how to be transformed from a bedpan full of -you know what- to a “vessel fit for the master’s use”. Interesting how the master has both “in HIS house”. I think some people will choose to remain a bedpan their whole life and go to heaven that way. They are, after all, “in HIS house” according to the scriptures.
I’ve been in the process of having all that stinky sewage cleaned out of me!
Not easy, but GOOD!

Dear Cheryl,
Having been what you have just been through at the hands of “brothers and sisters in Christ” I wish you would re-consider what Rick Joyner has written. I know you had a run in involving your beloved daughter and the mama bear comes out, but I don’t think you should cross him off as “dangerous” and a “heretic”. (You know how that feels now. ) I did not read all of this, but if you have a minute, skim a few paragraphs and see if you can understand what he is trying to communicate about the condition of the church:
The Final Quest

The church has an enemy and it is not those fellow Christians with whom we disagree.

So, I was talking with my friends about the situation… all the vitriol…
And I was sad after all. It really does bother me…
and Chris (like a mother to me) said that when Jesus’ mothers and brothers came looking for Him, HE didn’t even invite them in, and HE said

“Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” [49] Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. [50] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

She said she had asked herself “WHY did HE ignore HIS mother and brothers there?” She pointed out that JESUS HIMSELF could not perform miracles in HIS hometown because HE was not received. HIS own family did not believe in HIM

So, HE has been there Cheryl, restricted by unbelief. Their loss! 🙁

just one more before I go out…
from http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6512
Chuck Colson “When Ego Trumps Accountability”

We all have, I discovered, an infinite capacity for self-justification. I knew I could do no wrong, and I could persuade anyone I was right in any event. Well, I went to prison.

People who are successful are particularly vulnerable. Nobody tells us “no,” and if we think we’re doing the right thing, as Wolfowitz thought he was, we are really then in peril.

That’s why, after I got out of prison I committed to always have a group of people I respected around me and to submit to them for any major decision I had to make. For thirty years of ministry, this has protected me from myself.

I’ve seen Christian leaders, sadly, without accountability, and often they fall hard. Everybody, at every level of life, needs an accountability group—people you can turn to and lean on and trust yourself to. The heart is infinitely deceitful.

I suspect that the world will continue to produce men like Wolfowitz—brilliant men who go astray because they’re so confident of their own abilities, they become blind.

The Wolfowitz story is a cautionary tale. Every Christian in authority, from a parent to a boss in the office, needs to find people who care more about God than our egos and who will tell us whether what we’re doing is advancing the Kingdom or our vanity—no matter how great we think we are.

I think there is too much “authority” talk in the church to help Christian men struggling with porn. I think we could use more “accountability” talk.

its all his logs
he’s lobbing them over at you

“deceived, heretic, slanderer, poison”

what is IN A MAN’S HEART comes out of his mouth.
I fear for him, Cheryl. 🙁

I found you ever so gracious on that board.
You are a good role model to me of Eph 4:29.
I have lots of room to grow there.

Love Ya! Charis

re: #59
unsubmissive comes to mind too
all about authority over everyone else and never under any accountability.

submission is not intended to be the exclusive province of women and children…

don’t get me going….

Anyway, Cheryl, I’m off to Bible Study now.
I’m praying for you.!

59 that is enlightening!

my mentor is constantly reminding me “consider the source”
deceived comes to mind.
(has he called you deceived? :p)

“you are poison”
“you are a heretic”
“you are a slanderer”

there is the log
and the splinter

Think of him holding up a mirror and saying it. 🙁
Cheryl, don’t come into agreement with lies!
You don’t have to defend yourself!

I agree with #55
I just hate to see you and women leaders take such a beating! 🙁

Adam was supposed to protect the garden.
Adam’s sons fail.
Maybe 1Tim 2:11-15 is God’s protection for women.

You are such a good role model!
You and your friends!
I’m so glad I met you!

(But I still never heard of Matt Slick. Who’s he? 😉 )

Is he in the same church as Beth Moore?
If so, don’t worry, the women are learning to search the scriptures for THEMSELVES! 🙂 God is taking care of HIS precious beloved daughters!

TBH Cheryl,
I’m really not sure that God wants women to be head pastors over men. Look at the kind of abuse they take?
GOD cares about us and want to PROTECT us from abusive people!!!

Why do you have to convince them?
Why don’t you just let them keep their churches “authoritative women free zones”? If they are disobeying GOD and muzzling the modern day Priscillas and Phoebes then they will have to answer to GOD for their rebellion.

FWIW, Cheryl, I learned in counseling that the crises are the opportunites for the greatest growth and progress; and that the furnace gets really hot before the breakthrough. The crises in my marriage had the same elements: insults, put downs, power and control. They sound like mean, unchristian bullies, but they are really afraid. Afraid of losing control/power.

God taught me to REST.
“take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light and you will find REST for your souls”
“in repentance and REST is my salvation
in quietness and trust is my strength”