Cool! 😉 Wade Burleson is one of my very favorite people! Good points that he brought out. Thanks for pointing me to the piece, Thy Peace. (I seem to be poetic at this time of night). I don’t always read Wade’s writing as I get busy in my own ministry. Thanks!

Thank you pinklight! I see a sympathetic witness. I may have to subpoena you as a character witness for Eve, eh?

I thought that I too was a homemaker until I read Dorothy’s description of her “role” as homemaker:

Dr. Patterson has traveled to more than 75 countries; she met with Pope John Paul in his private apartment in the Vatican; she served as Chair for President Ronald Reagan’s Presidential Bible Committee and was received in the Oval Office; she has had coffee with former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in his Knesset office; she’s been the guest of Yaser Arafat at a midnight banquet in Saddam Hussein’s palace guest house in Baghdad.

I half expected to see titles placed after her grandkids first and second names. Very high class indeed.

Thy Peace,
I just pulled your comment out of my spam box. If a comment doesn’t go through again, just send me an mail and I will go looking for it 😉

Hi Lydia,
Welcome to my blog!

When folks stop sending their money to the SBC this will go away.

But what will PP do when the money is not there? He may cut the wages of everyone else or lay people off. Surely he wouldn’t consider that his wages or the wages of his wife should be touched, right? After all he is the most important person there and without him where would the leadership be? 😉

The question of how to get ineffective or unethical leaders off of their place of influence is a huge one. I think that inevitably someone of importance or someone with a backbone of steel needs to stand up to these people. And then another one needs to come after him/her. And then another one and another one and eventually something will be done. How many “dead” bodies it will take before anyone listens, I am not sure. I sure do wish that I had God’s ability to know the answers.

gengwall,
I added the question about God going to Adam first. Thanks again for the suggestion!

gengwall,
Oh my goodness you have just blown the lid off of the different “roles” claim.

I think that godly men should all apply to take one of Mrs. Patterson’s classes and then ask her if she is in sin teaching them. Maybe it is time that godly men take a respectful but powerful stand. Where there is a will there is a way.

Kay,
Not only did Jesus cook for the men, but he encouraged Mary to stay away from the kitchen and sit at his feet as a disciple. How many women who are gifted and called by the Holy Spirit have been relegated to the kitchen making coffee and muffins for the men as they debate theological issues and set more and more restrictions on women?

Tom,
I believe that the defeat of this injustice in the church will be accomplished by the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh and both men and women will prophesy. Those who shut out the Holy Spirit from their churches and their seminaries will die in legalism. I also believe that those within these churches and seminaries who still have life will be awakened. I pray that God will call a Paul who will speak out boldly without fear. While I weep for those who have allowed this kind of nonsense to gain a foothold in some churches and some seminaries, I still hold onto the power of the Holy Spirit to raise up people who can make a change. Women will prophesy and who will stop them when they have been empowered by the Holy Spirit? The choice is clear – quench the Holy Spirit and have God’s blessing removed or embrace the work of the Holy Spirit and be filled with God’s blessing.

I believe that God has been merciful for a long time to those who have not feared Him but acted on their own initiative. But I believe that a time of accounting is coming and God will distinguish between those who fear Him and those who don’t.

That is my two cents worth.

Thanks for the kind comments, Alison!

Tom,
I understand what you mean especially by the term “dares”. Those who blow the whistle or who expose that which is false are often tarred and feathered and then removed. Sometimes things are not fixed until those who still have a conscience finally say “enough is enough” and there is a massive backlash. It is lonely being a lone fighter who blazes the way. I know because I have been there and done that. But even through the pain knowing that one has done what is right and pleased the Lord through faithfulness can give one peace through the battle.

I was very dismayed to hear that this seminary has taken such a strong stand on the women’s issue and it is mostly due to Paige Patterson. I hope for the churches sake that other seminaries do not follow his lead.

I know that we are were taught this and I use the term too, but where did headSHIP come into the picture? The Bible says “head” and “body” not headship and bodyship. Maybe we should write a book about the duties of the bodyship. 😉

gengwall,
I really appreciate your feedback! Yes, you are right, I missed a very “vital” part that I should have commented on. Interesting that my spam word for this comment is “vital”. 😉

I will work on adding that part perhaps later today or tomorrow as I have time. I will leave up your comment so that people will see that there are people on my blog who provide valuable input and without them I would not have as much balance as I do. Thank you!

There is quite a disconnect when one does not have the answers to these hard questions on women. What does a complementarian do? If that one wants to remain a complementarian because it is a safe, comfortable place and he/she doesn’t love the truth, they will do nothing. But those who love the truth will be motivated to find the answers.

In working with the cults I found out that most didn’t care for truth. They seemed to prefer to check their brains at the door and parrot the party line without really thinking. It was actually dangerous for them to reason through the hard questions because it would cause them to make a decision about what they had accepted as their faith. Those who did think for themselves eventually got out of the cult they were in.

I am working on my book right now as well as research for my next DVD project. My research is on an issue in the Christian church that has divided the church for many years even though it doesn’t define whether one is a Christian or not. In my research I have engaged a half a dozen proponents of the opposing viewpoint who have agreed to answer my questions. But when it comes down to actually getting answers from them, that is another thing. I just got dumped yesterday from another one of these Christians. Even though I am polite, very respectful and don’t give my view because I am just asking questions about the opposing view, I am still getting dumped because people don’t want to have to deal with my questions. So this fellow gave me his view, he gave me his proof text and when I asked a simple, logical question from his view, he had to run away because there is no answer to my question that would allow his view to stand. His own view crumbled by his own proof text. I am simply amazed at those who do not love truth but rather love their own comfort. I am not like that at all.

So I will continue to ask questions and continue to challenge people to love truth. I trust that there will be many more truth lovers out there who are willing to humble themselves to admit that they could be wrong and accept the truth of God’s Word when it is shown to them. A view that cannot stand the hard questions is a view that isn’t worth much at all in my opinion.

gengwall,
I hope you feel better soon. Thank you for letting us know that you were very ill. We would not have wanted to lose you!

Kay,
Mark’s comment shows a great misunderstanding of the male/female issue on this blog. The issue here is spiritual equality. Are men and women spiritually equal and able to serve the church in all areas with the gifts that He has given them? I believe that the answer is a resounding yes, yes, yes! The fact is that God has designed the church to not be complete without women. In fact all of us are needed and when any of us are marginalized and our gifts shelved as not needed for body health, then we will all suffer. We have been suffering greatly and the pain won’t end until we are a healthy body without restriction so that the blood may flow through our veins again and bring health, vitality and growth.

God is the source or origin of Christ as the Christ had a beginning. As the eternal Word of God He had no beginning so 1 Cor. 11:3 could not say that God is the “head” of the Word of God. It is accurately stated that God (the Trinity) is the “head” of the Messiah (the man). God is His source and He is connected to God in an intimate way through his birth as a man but nevertheless His ultimate source is from God.

gengwall,
I am sorry to hear that you were sick. I hope that you are on the mend.

pinklight,
It is also so interesting to see you process information. Always serial comments. Always questions and deep thoughts. Keep up the good work!

By the way Dave, I loved your comments!

When people are united in will and purpose there is no hierarchy nor any need for it!

Amen!!

The thought that there are two (or three) opposing wills in the Godhead is absent from the Scriptures. Jesus completely has in His essence the same identical will as the Father. He doesn’t need to submit His will and set it aside to follow the Father’s will because His will is not different than the Father’s.

I too love to talk about the Trinity! It is our precious God.

Ware’s idea originates in the need to find a precedence for permanent subordination. The devaluing of the will and authority of Jesus and attaching it to the devaluing of the will and authority of the woman was the perfect solution to have a slam-bam case closed solution. The next issue became the problem of what to do with the woman in eternity. Many are now saying that since she was created to be subordinate then she has to keep that subordination for all of eternity just as they believe that Jesus will be eternally subordinate. Those who have accepted the permanent subordination of the woman create a “role” for men that is permanent into eternity so that only men will judge the earth and judge angels. But Paul said in 1 Cor. 6 that it is all of us (the body of Christ) who will judge the world and judge angels.

The subordination view just seems to grow and grow and take more and more freedom away from women even in eternity.

Ware gets his idea that we are to pray to the Father alone because he has so devalued Jesus as under the superior worship of the Father alone that he has ripped apart the Trinity teaching that only one deserves the highest honor. This is a very serious error.

I think that Paul is pretty consistent in 1 Cor. 11 when he uses the term “God” to mean the Godhead. Or should we see that women are in the image of the “Father”? Men and women are in the image of the Triune God.

“God” is the head of Christ. The head and the body are connected. The fact that Jesus came from “God” shows his connection with God and His equality. It does not show His inferiority nor does it show His eternal subordination. Jesus has all the rights and all the authority of God without limit. It is because He is the God-man who came from God as proof of His origin.

Now concerning the head covering of 1 Cor. 11, the quote you gave shows a great misunderstanding regarding the spiritual nature of the head covering. The head covering was worn because they felt that because of their sin they were unworthy to look upon God. It was worn because of the shame of their sin. John Lightfoot brings this out in his commentary and he has issued a challenge for anyone to prove that the head covering meant subjection. It did not. The man had no other cultural mandate to wear the covering except for the shame of his sin. Is this honoring to Jesus who died to take away our sin? We should all shout “Of course not!”

There were many misunderstandings of Paul and these misunderstandings made Paul hard to understand. We should not take grave misunderstandings from early church fathers and use them as the test for orthodoxy or for the issue of women in ministry. The thing that really gets is puzzling – that those who believe that Paul was fighting for women to have a head covering as a mandate from creation now no longer force women to cover. Is it a Biblical mandate from creation or not?

Mark,
You said:

Conclusion- I believe that the doctrine of the ESS is true orthodox teaching regarding the Trinity. However I do disagree with using the term subordination as it has had many uses throughout this historical debate and should be avoided in my opinion. Frank, I pose this to you, that you look beyond the terminology and look at the doctrine. Then you will see who is the orthodox view.

Do you really believe that the eternal Word has a different will in opposition to the Father’s will? Do you believe that Jesus as the eternal Word is not to have the highest honor alongside the Father? Is only the highest honor and highest worship to go to the Father? Do you also agree that different “roles” is also a subordination of actions so that Jesus cannot operate in full Deity by having a personal relationship with us through prayer and with our full worship? I am wondering if you really understand the implications of ESS and if you are willing to stand before Jesus in the judgment and tell Him face to face that He was limited in the exercise of His Deity to a lesser position so that His will was never used in the Trinity, that He isn’t worthy of prayer and that He is limited in action in the Trinity? For those who think this way, I wouldn’t want to be standing next to them when they say this before the King of Kings and LORD of lords, our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mark,
You write concerning Louis Berhof’s writing from 1939:

In personal subsistence the Father is first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third. It need hardly be said that this order does not pertain to any priority of time or of essential dignity, but only to the logical order of derivation. The Father is neither begotten by, nor proceeds from any other person; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son from all eternity. Generation and procession take place within the Divine Being, and imply a certain subordination as to the manner of personal subsistence, but no subordination as far as the possession of the divine essence is concerned.

Berkhof is clearly talking about procession and clearly removing his comments from being connected to any part of the divine essence or Deity, thus he is not talking about a subordination of will, authority or actions. He isn’t even close to teaching the full ESS doctrine of Bruce Ware.

162 Mark,

To put him in context is to show how he was responding to Arian claims that Jesus was an intermediate being between the absolute God and mankind, thus he was less God and subordinate. Athanasius strongly rebuked this showing how Jesus was equally divine.

This is the essence of the ESS debate – that Jesus as the eternal Word in the Trinity is not less than any of the other members of the Trinity in His Godhood. Power and authority is one of the essentials of the Godhead so saying that Jesus in the Trinity has less than full and complete authority would mean that Jesus is somehow less than fully God in His essence. It is not just a matter of “roles” but of essence since His will is said in ESS to be not equal with the Father’s will so that the will of Jesus is in subordination to the Father’s in the Trinity.

To test this out all we need to do is to take the current material being written by Bruce Ware in his book Father, Son & Holy Spirit relationship, roles & relevance. Ware takes the essence of God and divides this essence into a higher authority, higher will, higher worship for one member of the Trinity thus a lower authority, subordinate will and lower worship for Jesus. Because of the lowering of the essentials of God in the eternal Word, Jesus is no longer considered as one that we are to pray to since the Father has the complete and only “role” of hearing and answering prayer and the supreme one in the Trinity. When remove Jesus’ full Deity and lower Him to a lower essence no longer capable or hearing and answering prayer and having a will that in opposition to the Father’s will in the Trinity, leaves Jesus to be nothing less than a subordinate being who is not completely equal in will, authority or action (prayer) as the Father. This is a resurrection of an ancient heresy that we should reject.

TL,
Excellent information about the Hebrew as head/beginning/first. Thanks for sharing that!

Frank,
Thanks for all the good research and quotes that you give and for the strong support you bring to the unity and equality of the Trinity! Good job!

Mark,
I am very happy that you are considering cleaning up your article for publication and sending it to you. Good job!

I’m sorry you might have been offended about my comment regarding Frank. I think you were right, and i apologise to Frank for that.

Thank you, Mark, for your humility. While I try very hard not to do moderate people’s comments to remove things they have said, and usually people don’t say things unless they are hurting themselves, I do want to support those who come here and watch over them in case their integrity might be in question. I especially feel this way towards those who I have come to know by their comments over the past months and even years for some. I can see that they love Jesus like I do and I want my blog to be about unity and not be the cause of further division in the church. I still haven’t finished reading all the comments myself but if someone was calling you a liar or hinting that it was your motive to lie, I would feel compelled to defend you too. I want you to feel as much at home here as the others.

i have read numerously and in several places on your blogs where people are clearly attacking Grudem and Piper, rather than their views per se.

Wayne Grudem and Bruce Ware have been criticized on my blog for their views and the effects of their views. They are in a class by themselves along with CBMW in dividing the body of Christ. For the most part I don’t think their motives are called into question unless their writing has shown that they know the truth and they are withholding that truth. That appears to be the case for both of them in one point or another. That doesn’t sit well with me. I hope it doesn’t with you either. We don’t want to find ourselves protecting any man who distorts or withholds the truth with knowledge. This is a place where we can discuss these things and I give leeway to those who have been hurt by these things. If there is something especially harsh being said, I appreciate any who speaks up either publicly or privately to me so that I may try to bring our focus back and stay away from unwarranted personal attacks. It is not my intention to be inconsistent. I just may need a little more help as I can be overwhelmed too. This after all is a secondary part of my ministry and not my full focus so it cannot get my full attention as far as time goes.

I think the thing that I would like to encourage all is that we work hard to make our own comments as an example to all. Our best teaching is what we do ourselves as an example. I try hard to follow that although I have feet of clay too. It is my highest focus to honor the Lord Jesus first and then from there work on respect, patience and encouragement. Where I succeed in that, the honor goes to Jesus.

Andy,
I read through some of your material online and I can see that we have a very similar heart cry for unity in the church. I am currently working on a project on one issue where there is great division and it tears at my heart. I want to see the church whole in Jesus.

I also read through some of your material on women and I can see your heart for God and for women. I think that you will find a great deal of help in my DVD set on women in ministry especially over the issue of the head covering. There is a traditional meaning for the head covering that we have not typically been taught so that Paul’s precise meaning in 1 Cor. 11 has been misunderstood and the passage has been given a completely opposite meaning by most in their ignorance. A clip from the DVD series on head coverings is here I would recommend that you order the DVD set as I believe that it will fill in the gaps on some issues for you.