Cheryl

Elizabeth,
Yes, but she will deny it to the death. As long as she continues to deny her own actions, it should be easy for her to think that she is not accountable. What happens here on this earth is not the end. There will come a heavenly accounting one day and no one will be able to deny the facts then.

So onward to the VP’s argument coming soon… We will have a good time discussing these doctrinal matters even though she has refused to join us. She can’t say that I didn’t try to give her a voice on my blog.

Elizabeth,
Sure glad you stopped by and let us know what happened to you! Well, this just disproves CARM’s VP’s assertion that banning only comes from serious violations of the rules. I disputed her “facts” and her banning people and she called me a liar and, well, here we go once again. She just can’t help herself. What you said above is true and provable and there was nothing at all nasty in it. In fact it was very kindly said. 60 points!

Terri,
Your points are well taken. I did find the men on that blog to be trying very hard to be gracious and I can applaud and lift up my brothers for that kindness. Unfortunately they don’t have any answers for me but then I hope that what I said will cause them to think a little outside of the box. Greg Koukl, a wonderful apologist and author, said that when we have encounters with those who do not believe as we do, at least we can put a “stone” in their shoe. We may not convince them but we can cause them to think about it.

tiro3,
Oops I missed our comment for some reason. The audio is up on this page http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/02/23/radio-interview-with-frank-pastore/

Donna,
You said:
“Cheryl, I’ll see you on the Bayly blog. Until then, I wish you all the best as you seek to understand these issues better.”

Actually I don’t plan to go on the Bayly blog much if ever. There are other complementarian blogs which are much healthier and where the men and women are not as closed-minded to respectful dialog regarding secondary-level beliefs that do not mesh with their own. If I were to stay interacting within the communities that keep a hedge around these “secondary” issues by their strong-arm control and harsh treatment of their sisters in Christ, I might find myself taking on a sarcastic attitude too and I cannot afford to do that.

Jesus found himself face to face with unbending pharisees who tried to push him into their mold. Jesus characterized them in very unflattering terms because they were stiff-necked and they were not willing to have their motives and their ways examined by his light nor were they willing to repent of their ungodly attitudes and ways. But if you look carefully at how Jesus lived his life, he did not make a habit to be around the Pharisees nor did he ever run after them. He did not run from them but he did not keep company with them either. He dealt with them when they came in his pathway, but other than that he pretty much ignored them as he went to the common folk. Jesus is my example. When there is an issue that I have been asked to deal with by the precious people in the community that comes to this blog, I will deal with those like the Bayly brothers head one, but I do not readily seek them out nor do I want their attitude to affect mine in any way. I will just go about doing the work that God has called me to. While I will interact with complementarians from time to time as I pay attention to issues and comments that others raise, I will purposely seek for those who are respectful and Christ-like. These are the ones who are likely to be touched by the abilities that God has given me. The others will not change nor will they listen. Their pride precludes them from considering that I am a member of the body of Christ that they need. Every member of the body is needed and when the members are rejected we can start to understand that perhaps the one doing the rejecting is not even in the body at all. That is not my judgment to make. One thing I do know – if I want to follow the “Way of the Master” I must go to the ones who will listen and consider. The ones who are deaf and blind to the light of God’s word spoken through a woman are not my concern. God will deal with them in his own way.

Donna,
You said:

“So, what I have suggested to myself and to others is to stay in your communities and discuss these things of common interest.”

I don’t think that we need to necessarily stay in our own communities. That can cause “inbreeding”. It is good to go outside ourselves and interact with those who do not believe as we do. The problem comes not with interacting with others (because we certainly can learn from others and they can learn from us) but when we interact in either an offensive way or we habitually become offended. Then it is better to stay away and sometimes we just need a break so that we can see things without all the emotions. Strong emotions can distort our perception of reality.

You asked:

“What do I look like when I come on an egalitarian group? You answer that question.”

Donna, you appear both defensive, often sarcastic and at times out-right attacking your sisters in Christ. I also think you appear very hurt by something that has caused you to be offended in the past that you haven’t gotten over. Perhaps someone offended you who did not intend to offend, but again I must mention that strong emotion can color our perception of reality. I sense that you are offended easily and offense is taken at things that shouldn’t cause an offense.

You also asked:

“What do you look like when you come on a complementarian board? You answer that question.”

I try very hard to see complementarians as my brothers and sisters in Christ first and foremost. I also try to make the women in ministry issue to stay within the “secondary issues” of the church and not make it one of the essentials so that it breaks fellowship. If you would like to see how I come across on a complementarian blog, go to http://prouty.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/whats-a-girl-to-do/ and read the interaction.

You said:

“The experiments at trying to dialogue are failures – total and utter failures.”

I don’t agree. These issues are not solved at the drop of a hat, but continued dialog with graciousness and charity go a long way to mend these areas of disagreement. This is not an issue for the faint-hearted. It takes courage, love, patience and endurance and these are characteristics of the mature.

You said:

“So, thank you Cheryl, for allowing me to say something. I think that it is a total waste of time to discuss these issues together, but it is not a waste of time to read and think.”

You are welcome. I have no problem in allowing people to “speak” when the dialog is respectful.

You said:

“She is a good role model. No, I am not, nor have I ever said I was. …and my story is still my story…”

Being a good role model is very important. However we cannot just be a role model in our own little circle. We must grow up to be a role model who transcends the churches in-grown issues. The eye cannot say to the hand “I have no need of you”.

1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

When the church with all its divisions starts working together and loving one another, we will mature and grow and get beyond the offenses. I may be an eternal optimist but I truly do believe that Jesus is coming back for a mature church who has gone through the fire and has kept the faith. That mature church will love one another as He has loved us and in that heart of love there will be no real divisions.

Psalmist,
Thanks! Believe it or not, I don’t think I have ever used continual moderation before. If I could poke my finger through the computer, I would just do so and tell her to take a break and go for a walk. It always helps me when I need to clear my head. When people get too intense it isn’t good. Passionate it good, but intense just causes one to see themselves as either a perpetual victim or God’s special judge and jury. It won’t happen on my blog if I can help it because I want a real community here.

One other post before I start my work for today…it is possible for complementarians and egalitarians to disagree agreeably and still dialog in a respectful manner. I found a blog where I have been treated rather fairly. It is here http://prouty.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/whats-a-girl-to-do/ and although it is said that I am sinning for teaching the bible to men, honestly it was said in a respectful way. My line of reasoning is an outside-the-box reasoning that looks on the impact of men not being allowed to receive God’s gifts.

I still have a lot of posts here that I have not thoroughly read through. I have them marked and will be going through them in the next day or two as I continue to work on the Trinity DVD. If there is anything said here that I am not catching that is inappropriate, please could someone else me so it is caught sooner rather than later?

Lynn,
Thank you for that information. I guess this settles the matter. Kamilla and Donna are very public figures choosing to post on public boards for the world to see their line of reasoning and the way that they look down on other sisters in Christ who do not agree with them on what women can or cannot do in the body of Christ. If there is correction coming from either one of them from the Bayly brothers, then this “correction” will come publicly so that all can see the maturity level of the one doing the “correction”. The posts prove that public accountability is the path of wisdom.

Dear Donna,
I let Kamilla know that I was posting her comment in an email to her. She did not object then and why should she?

You said:

“I do not doubt for a moment your desire to serve God as you understand that term.”

This is not proper to say to a sister in Christ as if my God is different than yours.

I appreciate that you tried this time to make your objection known. At least this gives me an idea of what you are talking about. That is always helpful. So for the record, I didn’t “tattle” on Kamilla. The blog was set up as a safe place for her and if she didn’t want to show up that was her decision. I posted her decision exactly as she gave it as I told her I would. I think that is respectful and if she doesn’t think that she was respectful to me, then she will have to deal with that.

Lin, Paula, Psalmist,
Thanks for your support and help on this blog.

Psalmist,
I saw a show the other day that showed how one who practices ungodly behavior will often accuse their spouse of that same behavior. It doesn’t make sense to me, but I guess it is one way of dealing with one’s own bad habits. I do not support that kind of tactic and the burden of this blog is on my shoulders. I do think, though, that there are many godly complementarians out there who do not attack others and try to live lives that will honor Christ. I am honored to call these ones as my sisters in Christ.

Notification to bloggers,
I have put Donna Carlaw on moderation for her un-Christlike behavior and her continued personal attacks. This is the first time I have had anyone come onto this blog who has refused to submit to the rules after several warnings. I am the owner of this blog and I am responsible for the attitude here so Donna should have been gracious enough to comply with my requests. Honestly for someone who prides themselves as being “submissive”, this kind of unsubmissive attitude speaks volumes about what Donna stands for.

I will release any comments from Donna to the blog that meet the standards of this blog. The rest will be taken care of appropriately.

I hope the rest of you will agree that I have been extremely patient with Donna.

Donna,
You are right. There has been a pristine purity here because we hold up Jesus as the one watching our words and we want to honor him. This is why I asked you not to violate the intention of this blog and please refrain from what you rightfully speak as “gossip” for that is all it is if it is an accusation without facts.

Donna,
I have asked you to be respectful and to prove your accusation with facts. You have not submitted to my request. That is not respectful and it is not applying discipline with grace or knowledge.

You said:

“You have failed, my dear, and I pointed out your failure. You are just engaging in gossip. Kamilla is not here, yet you brought her into the conversation in a disrespectful way.

You do not want to be held accountable for your words. You have exposed your shame and hypocrisy.”

Donna, you have not proven this accusation and I would ask you to be respectful enough to either prove your accusation or cease commenting on this blog. You are not acting in a responsible Christ-like manner. If you would like to make an accusation without having to show the facts of your charge of sin, I am sure that there are many blogs who would appreciate any attack on a brother or sister in Christ. I do not allow this because this is not honorable and this is a warning to you. Do not bring an accusation without facts. This is an ungodly attack on one that you have been charged with loving because I too am in the body of Christ. If your purpose here is only to attack then please provide us with your facts for your accusation otherwise, please my sister, do it on you own blog, but do not do it on mine. I have not yet censored your comments although you have defiantly refused to abide by the rules. I ask you respectfully to cease the personal attacks and if you bring an accusation I will hear it only if you have facts to back up an accusation. Otherwise I ask you to go where all the other mockers congregate who refuse to be corrected with love.

Donna,
This forum is a place where I have chosen that the words spoken here will be with Christ-like respect and ones that honor truth. I would ask that you respect the intent of this blog. You said:

“Cheryl, I must point out something to you, and it causes me grief. You are sharing information that was sent to you in private. In doing that, you are casting aspersions on your sister, and betraying a confidence. You are doing a very clever job of editing to make yourself look good, and your sister look bad.

It seems to me that Kamilla exposed you, and you want to cover your nakedness with a fig leaf of hypocrisy.”

Truth is important and facts are part of that truth. I did not share any information that was sent to me in private. The fact is that Kamilla did not share any information with me let alone any private information. I set up this blog post so that she could share whatever she wanted in the safety of community. She chose not to do that. Donna, if you are going to come onto my blog and accuse me of sin, you will have to do that with facts. You have presented nothing to prove that I shared something that was private.

On the Bayly blog, I was told that I needed to understand the Trinity because apparently I didn’t know anything and there was a public request for someone to educate me. I set up this post for that “education” to happen. Are you now the one who will be “educating” me? Are you now the new representative of the Bayly’s who has come to correct my error?

I have done no editing yet of people’s comments, except for one egalitarian as I removed a word that came across as harsh. I haven’t even had time to read all of the comments here from yesterday or this morning but I trust that people have been respectful enough that I wouldn’t need to edit. Please show me the evidence that you have that I have edited something to make Kamilla look bad or that I have edited something to make myself look good. It is a godly thing to prove your accusations if indeed there is sin to be accounted for so that if I have sinned I can see my sin and repent.

If Kamilla has “exposed me” and my “nakedness” then it wasn’t here that she did this. Kamilla has refused to come here and speak the truth. I can understand why she might not want to do this. If there is nothing to say of value in private, then there is nothing to say in public either. I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. I have certainly done that and not every blog owner would take the time to invite the other side to speak without censorship except what is required – respect and no personal attack.

I believe that it is time that we expose the attempt to put Jesus into a position that is less than the position of the Father. When we place one person of the Trinity as “more” of anything than the Son, we have dishonored the Son. The Father is not the only Supreme in the Trinity. The Father is not the only one who gets the highest honor as some have written. All honor is shared and all glory is share by the equal members of the Trinity. I think the quote that was given from Grudem reveals the level that some have gone to, to put Jesus down. When Jesus is put into any kind of a lesser role, the next step is to pull God down to our level. Indeed God is pulled down to even below us when it can be said that God is our subordinate when he helps us. When we can read that kind of thing and not weep internally for the state that the church has been pulled down to, then perhaps we are naked and without spiritual eyesight. We need to buy from Jesus that white robe to cover our nakedness and we need to ask him to give us eyes that see. God help us!

My friends,
You all have had great comments today. I wish I had more time. I have been working on my Trinity DVD for a good portion of today and I am extremely tired. I will have to leave my thoughts regarding your comments until tomorrow when there is an awake brain! 🙂

Lynn,
Thanks for the good thoughts. I sure didn’t know what she got so upset with. If she was wanting to teach some of her truth, you would think that she would appreciate a bigger audience especially since I made it clear that everyone had to be nice.

I actually did it this way because I submitted to the advice of godly Christian “brethren”. We are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. If someone is going to rail on us, it is wiser to allow it in a public forum because there is accountability for both sides. I am a big fan of accountability and I highly value the wise advice of those who visit this blog and often give me of their wisdom.

Donna,
Regarding your “questions” regarding the subordination of the Son:

1. If one person willingly submits his will to that of another person because they are of one will in the first place, is that person’s being diminished in any way?

Answer: It is impossible for there to be “one will” if one is submitting his will to another. The fact that one has to submit his will proves that there is not one will but two wills with one will subordinated to the other.

2. What does the phrase “the Father SENT the Son to be the Saviour of the world” say about when the Son began to obey the will of His Father? No one disagrees that Jesus was in submission to the will of His Father during the time of His earthly ministry. However, when did this submission to His Father’s will begin, right at the moment of His conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary, or before? When was He SENT, IOW?

Answer: The Father’s sending does not in any way mean that it was not the Son’s will to become man. You may want to watch our DVD on the Trinity to see the OT references where YHWH of Hosts sends YHWH. YHWH of Hosts is a reference to the preincarnate Christ. This does not mean that there was a difference of will just because one sent the other. It actually proves a unity of will.

3. The very words “Father” and “Son” show that they are in a hierarchical relationship, but one that does not diminish them in any way. God chose to reveal Himself as the eternal Father who has an eternal Son. Christ’s sonship did not begin at the incarnation and end when He returned to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Answer: Not so. It proves a relationship not a hierarchy. An adult son is not under the lordship of his Father. Also in the Old Testament the Son is not called the Son except in prophesy about the incarnation. He is called YHWH of Hosts – the LORD of armies.

Your presupposition about what we believe and how we reach our beliefs has tainted your view. This is kin to witnessing to a JW who says that we get our idea of the Trinity from pagan sources. No, we get our idea of the Trinity from the pages of scripture, in context. That is the exact same way that we get our belief that God has created men and women spiritually equal. It is from the pages of scripture taken in context.

I do not know what you mean by “shot-gun” theology. I do not shoot anyone. The theology I have is very respectful to scripture. I believe that each word and each piece of grammar is God-breathed and there for a purpose. There are many complementarians who do not hold to this level of respect for scripture.

In the end we will all give an account of ourselves before God. How have we treated God’s word and how have we treated our brothers and sisters in Christ? When we judge each other unfairly and attribute sin to a person merely by the gender of the people that they minister to with their God-given gifts, we are judging unfairly and with an unrighteous “law”. For those who think that their sisters in Christ are sinning by giving their teaching gifts for the benefit of men in the body of Christ, I would think they should leave the matter in God’s hands, accept them as sisters in Christ and move on to more important things.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Donna, thank you for stopping by. The body of Christ needs to be united on the gospel and united in our love for one another. It is then that the world will pay attention because they will see us in diversity but in loving unity.

Terri #121,
I am glad that you found this forum. There are many here who are working through what an egalitarian marriage looks like and you have friends here who can help out. I just wish I had more time.

The practice of legalism against women is a symptom that the church is unwilling to allow people to make healthy decisions for themselves. This creates dependent people instead of growing-into-maturity Christians. A church who dictates what color you can or cannot wear is treating their members as children. Maturity isn’t encouraged this way, it is stiffled.

Paula #123,
Great question – What part of “egalitarian” means supremacy?

This is the part that I don’t really get. Why do some complementarians think that egalitarians are “power hungry” and what the supremacy when all they are looking for is be useful in our spiritual gifts as equal human beings? Men have taken a role of rulership that I do not want. The fact is that these men shouldn’t have it either. No man or woman should rule over the other. The world’s way is rulership, domination and subjugating other people. This is not the “Way of the Master”. Jesus turned the world upside down by equating greatness with humility and servanthood. Those who seek power and control are not following Jesus’ way and I do not know any egalitarian who wants to set themselves up as a ruler.

Lin #122,
The term “the feminization of the church” is abusive in my mind. It isn’t just attacking men but women. It is using who we are by nature (feminine) as a type of swear word. The thought comes to me about what the men who use this term expect the women to do? Should we stop using our gifts in the church so there is no “feminine” influence at all? Should we stop going to church so that there are more men than women and then the church will stop being “feminized”? This kind of term is abusive to both men and women.

Terri #120,
Those are great questions and deserve to be answered. Unfortunately I don’t think you will ever get an answer to your questions.

Thank you Jael for your kind words! God’s word is truth and it is a privilege and a responsibility to give out that truth especially to our American brothers and sisters. Thanks my friend for your prayers as we go forward in this brand new direction.

Kim,
You are exactly right! The truth needs to be spoken with love. I was just reading last night in Jeremiah and he said that he had spoken to God on behalf of the Jews. It was the same Jews who hated Jeremiah and tried to kill him and wouldn’t listen to Jeremiah. Jeremiah acted with love towards the Jews and gave them the messages from God. It wasn’t until all avenues had been closed and the Jews stopped their ears from hearing and set their hearts towards only doing evil towards Jeremiah himself after having the truth preached to them, did Jeremiah ask God to give the Jews what they deserved. This is the type of attitude that shows that the message is from God. When we rip and tear at the sheep without any sense of love, how could we possibly know the message is from God? Yes, it is the truth spoken with love that proves it is from God and proves us as a true messenger of the Great Shepherd.

Neolights,
I went to your blog and I saw that you said this about an article that you did on women in ministry:

“I have no doubt that names will be called and that accusations will be made based off of this, but that is fine with me, as such tactics are reserved for those who have no intelligible argument to rebut with.”

Interesting. Brother, it appears that you are already aware that someone who calls other Christians names and one who gives out accusations is merely practicing a tactic reserved for those who have no intelligible argument to rebut with. Amen, it is as you say. That being said, please do not practice this kind of tactic here. On this blog we love intelligent arguments and respectful attitudes.

Elizabeth,
I was amazed that CARM opened up their boards for the world to see. I didn’t think it would last long. I am not surprised that they have closed the feminism board from the eyes of the world. It is in this forum that the true nature of the leadership of CARM shows the best (or rather the worst!) But God is not blind and he has seen the hurt that has been caused many of his children. Jesus talks about a servant who beats the fellow slaves of God (Matt 28:48-51). It is not a pretty picture. The good shepherd pays attention to when his sheep are hurt and he is the one who will call the abusers to account. May the Lord turn their hearts back to him before it is too late.

Lilly,
Welcome my sister! I hope that you feel loved here and respected as a sister in Christ. The lack of brotherly love on CARM has been a source of frustration for me. It has been difficult to understand the bitterness that comes from those who should see that this is a secondary issue not necessary for fellowship in the church or necessary for salvation. Sometimes I think that God allows this kind of attitude for his own purpose. One of the things that God uses it for is to open the eyes of his children to see the difference. For that I am so grateful to God! He can even use evil for his own good purpose. I can’t always get my head around how he does that, but he is able to work all things together for good to them that love God and are called according to his purpose. I am grateful dear sister that you have seen a side that is often carefully hidden. This is what has caused many to leave that “camp” as they cannot justify this kind of vitriol against other brothers and sisters in Christ. May it never be said that true brethren should treat each other this way and still say that they love God. How can we love God whom we have not seen and hate our brother whom we have see?

Thank you pinklight,

These words made me cry! God has already promised us in our ministry that we will stand and see the amazing things that he is going to do on our behalf. It is the government of Canada who has forced us into the USA but we believe that it is not without God’s knowledge and fore-ordination because he directs our pathway even if he has to use unbelievers to give us a push. The long hours of work have indeed been non-stop and the work on WIM was often 15 hours a day and took me two solid years. Indeed we are nothing but low trees and nothing of worth in the eyes of many, except that we are open to be used for God’s grace and his glory. The amazing thing is that God can and does bypass the ones who are already exalted and he picks the ones who are seen as nothing so that when God’s work is accomplished it is God alone who will get the ultimate glory not any human. Paul saw this as a “God thing” and he saw that God isn’t looking for greatness but weakness.

2Co 12:9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Thank you again for sharing this with us! It really touched my heart and encouraged me.

Neolights,
Perhaps you could share with me what presupposition I am forcing into the text? Have you taken the time to understand what my position is or are you attacking a sister in Christ without any knowledge about what you are talking about?