Jennifer,
I edited your comment so that programs that block x rated sites will not block mine.

Women too have a piece of skin that can be cut and removed. We will talk about that shortly in the next post. I think you will see some things that you may not have thought about before. Expect a few thought-provoking thoughts 🙂

Jennifer,
I was using an extreme example to express my point. This is the one area of my life that others see as a male characteristic. I am very logical. The logical side of me does not trust my feelings, although I respect my feelings and do consider them. But I also want to know more so that I can test what I feel. I have also corresponded with many people in different cults and highly patriarchal groups and I have been amazed at how one’s feelings adapt to the “culture”. I have also seen those who refuse blood transfusions because their heart tells them it is a sin. We need to be very careful not to go against our conscience, but we also need to be careful not to put all our trust in our feelings.

Again, for me this is the extreme logical side. I have been told that I am also a confounded skeptic. I desire to test everything and then to hold fast to what is good. Anyone trying to convince me with emotions alone will find a stone wall. This is the one thing that is weird too because complementarians often accuse me of being ann egalitarian because of my feelings – that I feel it is right and I refuse to test it by scripture. Nothing can be farther from the truth. I am an egalitarian *because* of scripture that I have read in context.

Hopefully that explains where I am coming from 😉

Yup, there are a lot of exceptions, but the similarities of the characteristics can be very helpful for us to understand our husbands and perhaps even more important – for them to understand us. I am a naturally submissive person and the one thing that I got from this DVD series is that it is a healthy thing to ask for what I need and not expect that my husband will naturally understand my needs. I also learned that it is okay for me to barter to get what I need. I wish I had learned this a36 years ago. I wouldn’t have had to wait for 20 years to get shelves put inside my kitchen cupboards! I thought taht I was being nice being so patient and not nagging, but I didn’t get what I needed. I am now learning what I need to do that will help my husband to stop procrastinating and the rewards that he gets for pleasing me is very helpful for him too!

Jennifer,
I agree but I certainly don’t think it is vindictive. God has a way of turning evil into something that is good. I am still waiting to hear back from the radio station when the date has been chosen for the airing, but I am confident that God will get the glory and what was meant for evil will be used for God’s glory. Praise the Lord!

Jennifer,

I guess I am a little different than most. Perhaps it comes from the 16 years of leading Jehovah’s Witnesses to faith in Christ and watching their doctrine slowly change from the cult mentality to a biblical worldview. Every one of these ex-JW’s originally felt that they were “in the truth” in the Watchtower Society and most also felt very guilty and bad when they walked into a church and saw a cross hanging on the wall. I have learned that while feelings are a good guide normally, they cannot be used as the ultimate test for truth. I may feel wrong about having to live life as a door mat, but if scripture in context shows that this is God’s will for me, then I have to trust his Word rather than my feelings. In the same way, I may feel that it is wrong to teach the bible to men because I had been raised to believe this tradition, but if the Bible in context contradicts this, then I need to believe that the Bible allows me to use my gifts for the benefit of men in the body of Christ and not to worry about my feelings.

So in the end people will never convince me either way by appealing to emotions or feelings. I want everything tested by God’s word in context and that is what I trust. I have been deceived by emotions in the past and so I don’t put my final trust there. Are emotions and feelings a good thing? Sure! But I have had men tell me that sex with their girlfriends cannot be wrong because it feels so good. I choose to believe the Bible and I can assure them that feelings is not a safe method for judging sin.

Hi Jennifer,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! You are going to want to watch for the next post when I will be discussing the issue of the Abrahamic covenant and why only males needed to be circumcised. I think you will find it very interesting and it may open up some things that have been used by God as symbols and their symbolic meaning. I am out of the country right now just checking my mail and I won’t be able to get the new post up for at least a week, but watch for it. I would be interested to see what you think 🙂

As far as the type of sin that Adam committed and whether Eve was kicked out of the garden or not, it is important not to try to understand these issues with our thinking of what is right or not. We need to check out God’s word to see what it says. There have been many faulty traditions regarding the creation of mankind that need to be dispelled. If you haven’t already, check out the posts on Adam and Eve to read more. If you still have questions, email me (see the contact page at the top) and I can help.

Welcome, Jennifer!

The problem with these complementarians refusing to correct me is that if one believes that a person is living in unrepentant sin and continues to practice that sin, then the person is not showing themselves to be a believer. This is what CBMW believes. They have publicly stated that the issue of women in ministry is not a side issue but an issue affecting the gospel of Jesus. I have also been told that if I do not repent of the “sin” of teaching the bible to men then my salvation is in question and if I continue to practice this “sin” that I will go to hell. If that is truly the case, then can they agree to disagree with me? If I believed that these men were being so deceived that they were on their way to hell, I would want to witness to them and persuade them of the truth. It just isn’t loving to believe that someone is going to be lost for believing a doctrine different than yours but refuse to correct them. This is my main point. If the differences is significant and attached to one’s salvation there can be no “agree to disagree” between the two.

Very good points, Terri! I especially liked this:

Complimentarians seem to view everything through the lenses of power instead of love.

This is really the bottom line. When you view things through the lens of “power” such as who is on top or who is the big boss, our world view is distorted. You are right in that Jesus taught us to love one another and to hold the other in a higher regard. Those who seek power simply cannot do that because it goes against their goal.

If anyone comes across this post and knows of more sound churches who are also egalitarian, feel free to share these with us all!

Truthseeker,

Welcome!!
Regarding the “a woman” words of Paul’s in 1 Timothy 2:11, 12. There is nothing in the way that “woman” is written that would stop it from being either a single woman or women in general. The only way that we can know for sure is to check the context. There are two compelling clues that stand out. The first clue is that Paul switches from the plural in 1 Timothy 2:9 to singular in verse 11. If Paul had meant to continue with women in general, it would have been so easy to continue with the plural word women.

The second compelling argument is that verse 15 has both the singular and the plural. The only possible “home” we can find for the “she” in verse 15 is “a woman” in verse 11 & 12. At this point it still could be generic woman because “a woman” as generic woman would also be called “she”. But verse 15 doesn’t just have “she”, Paul also says “they”. It is grammatically wrong to call “a woman” as “they”. You can say “a woman” = “she” OR “women” = “they”, but you cannot say “a woman” = “they”. Once we have identified that “she” refers back to “a woman”, then we can also identify “they” as the man and woman found in verse 12. There is no other identifiable solution unless one disregards the singular “she” in verse 15.

There have been many complementarians who have examined my argument from 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and I have challenged them to find a hole in my argument or at least point out who else the “she” and “they” could be that are found in verse 15. I have not had anyone who could poke a hole in my argument. One lady tried by saying that the old testament talks about women in general and man in general by calling them “they”. The problem is that it is “a man” and “a woman” called “they” and never “a woman” as generic woman ever called “they”. Many who have been honest enough to consider the grammatical evidence have said that it is the best explanation of this hard passage they have ever seen.

You also asked:

“Also, per the phrase a bit further in 1 Tim. 2:15, when it says ‘women shall be saved by the childbirth’, does the word saved definitely refer to eternal salvation as opposed to some other kind of salvation?”

CBMW who is the key organization who promotes the complementarian view has admitted in their book “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” admits that Paul never uses the word “Sozo” (saved) in his epistles for anything other than spiritual salvation. This is a very important fact. Since Paul only uses this word for salvation in this one way we can be sure that 1 Timothy 2:15 is also used in this one way.

As far as versions of the bible I use the NASB, the NKJV and the ISV have been quite helpful to me. I use e-sword bible software (e-sword.net) which is mostly free. There lots of free resources that you can download and use and I find this very helpful. I hope that helps!

Cheryl

Greg,
Good comments. You are always one that digs into the historical setting that would fly under everyone else’s radar. Ummmmm….

Lin,
That is the language of love. Some women need words and others roses and others yet acts of service. As long as you ask for what you want, you are doing the right thing. He tells women to ask for what you want and don’t say that if he loved me he would know. You have to ask for what you want and ask more than once 🙂

Lin,
When he goes through the seminar he states that there are always exceptions. He says that in his own marriage there are areas that he is more like the typical female and his wife is more like the typical male. He says that one needs to remember that these are general characteristics and not set-in-stone rules. I am glad that he said this because I too have some opposite characteristics and that is just fine. My husband is more sensitive than I am at times and that is fine. It is his character and I am glad he is like this. The one thing that we did notice from the DVDs is that for the most part we can both agree that he describes much of the way each of us acts or interacts. I am much more able to multi-task than my husband as he finds that difficult.

P41 Mustang,
Thank you for your concern. Perhaps you can explain one “lie” that is deception on my post. You wouldn’t want to be guilty of a “drive-by” without opening yourself up to be tested by scripture would you? Sharing the truth with love involves more than just a rebuke, my brother.

On this blog I work hard to share truth with dignity and respect. While I allowed your posts to go through, I would encourage you not to name call or you will be edited. The Christian way is speaking the truth with love and I expect you to follow that. Is that fair?

Under Much Grace,

When I was doing research for my DVD series, I was literally shocked at the things I came across from CBMW and John MacArthur as I couldn’t believe that they could be so strict against women. If you would have told me four years ago that I would say that CBMW could even be considered mild compared to these ultra patriarchal groups, I don’t know if I would have believed it then. It is so unfortunate that these patriarchal groups seem to have gained inroads with home schooling groups. It is also unfortunate that the patriarchal groups are responsible for causing so much division in the body of Christ.

Oh and by the way, this speaker is a Pastor. He gets into forgiveness in one of the DVD sessions that is very good and very practical in a way that I don’t think a non-Christian presenter could.

It is certainly interesting to see how different men and women think and how their brains are “wired” differently. That is why we are true complements and why women are very much needed.

Greg,
Great imagery as usual. Lizards and manhole covers and traffic!

Jason #36,

“I just read that recent post on Bayly’s blog about Carolyn Custis James and Suzanne’s comments. Lord have mercy! Suzanne held it down, truly! You go, Sister Sue! I’ve never read so much arrogance and lack of discernment in my life. My goodness Jesus!”

I was shocked too at the harsh comments. Suzanne really did keep her cool and exhibited true power under control. It is these kinds of blogs (baylyblog.com) that should cause those sitting on the fence to really question the complementarian position. This unloving, unwarranted attack on the body of Christ is not the fruit of the Spirit and many men have left because they could no longer stand the attacks on their brothers and sisters in Christ. Complementarians like this really are their own worst enemy.

Jason #35,
Things are going well for me but very, very busy. I am still working on the Trinity DVD but distracted with legal matters with the ministry. Hopefully it will be resolved soon.

“But since when did complementarianism a very recent theological development become the test for Christian orthodoxy?…This really put egalitarians in a theological predicament regarding fellowship. We don’t hold much in common with theological liberals but we are scorned by evangelical complementarians.”

Jason you have hit the nail on the head. There are those who are willing to separate over a secondary issue and treat their brothers and sisters in Christ as if they are the enemy. This is very wrong and hurts the Lord Jesus who desires that his body draws together in love. It is so sad.

29 Lew,

Yes, I too got the impression that they believe that as men they are allowed to silence other men’s wives. I also think they would be very disrespectful if they had a woman boss.

30 Paula,

Great post and thanks for the link! Paula is one who likes to get to the meat of the matter.

Light,
Thank you for that link! That was great!

Paula,
I appreciated it too that you gave a “heads up” regarding someone else who was mistreated on the bayly blog. I did a quick search and found a blog that gave some of the discussion that resulted in a poster being kicked off. I don’t know if it was the same poster that you came across, but the disrespect that was given to her was extremely troubling to me. I see this all the time in the cults, but when it comes into Christianity, it causes me so much sadness.

Another quick word to all who read my posts and have stood with us in prayer while we fight a battle against the secular government who is intent on taking away our freedom to preach the gospel to those who are lost in the cults. I am not yet ready to give a full update on what is happening to our ministry, but today God gave a word of wisdom and the four of us who have partnered together in ministry have a sense of joy that God has stepped into a very serious situation and he has come to our rescue and he will fight on our behalf. I can’t give any details out right now but when things are completely settled I will do so. All I can say is that we are at peace and we are joyfully praising God for his wisdom and his timing! Praise the name of the Lord!! He indeed is our helper and our defender.

Pinklight,
You are right. Anyone who has nothing to hide should not fear a public “correction”. I have nothing to hide and if I cannot support my belief through scripture alone then there is more work needed. The thing that I always like the most, though, is a respectful handling of disagreements and that is key to my decision to go public.

Greg,
The problem with those who promote patriarchy is that their methods are akin to the world system. They speak about servanthood but their way actually promotes abuse. Where is the limits and who regulates what a man does to his wife? And why is patriarchy so important that God would create a being who will never grow up spiritually. She must look to her husband to keep her in line spiritually and the times when she feels the strongest in opposing a view of her husband’s, she is forced into submission at the expense of her free will. The biblical way is to world through the differences in order for both to end up with a united will. Whenever one bowls over the other person disregarding another person’s will and forcing their decision on the other person by pulling rank, one is following the world’s way.

So the question I have for y’all, is Jesus’ will ever revealed in the New Testament? We know that Jesus as a human submitted to his Father’s will. Did Jesus ever exercise his own will while he was here on earth? Thoughts?

Lin,
Thanks for providing that quote. I do have several Russell Moore audio lectures on the collapse of patriarchy. It has been awhile since I listened to the audio tapes. I will have to pull them out again. I actually have quite a number of CBMW speakers whom I have downloaded that I haven’t found time to listen to yet. I can only listen to this stuff in limited blocks of time not only because I am so busy (which I am) but because they cause me great irritation by the misusing of God’s word. For example when Moore says that Galatians 3:28 is all about patriarchy which takes the emphasis off of Jesus and on to only the Father and from there all men/husbands, is so far off what the scriptures actually say in context, that it is nothing less than proof-texting in the worst way.

Light,
I too thought it was a great idea to have a respectful public discussion. When Kamilla wrote me she suggested that I read her public comments on the baylyblog.com site (under her name) in the archives. After receiving biblical wisdom and reading her comments on several discussion boards/blogs that she posts on, it became evident to me that a public “correction” from her was the best way to keep things in a healthy, respectful manner and so I set up the blog “meeting spot” and made rules of biblical engagement. I sent this email to Kamilla:

Okay, I have it all set up and waiting for you. A respectful place, a loving Christian environment and lots of space to talk about the Trinity.

http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/02/01/the-bayly-brothers-and-the-trinity/

Whenever you are ready, I’ll meet you there and we will discuss.

This morning I got this email from her:

I must say Cheryl, from “I’ll wait for you to get back to me” to “Here’s the public forum I’ve set up on my blog” in one easy leap!

That’s hardly respectful behaviour, my dear. I’d like to say something clever about the audacity of your move, but I’m afraid it’s a rather common tactic in your camp. The consistency of the Egalitarian playbook never ceases to bore. I hope you and your respondents have a lovely discussion. I’m afraid it won’t include me.

My response back to Kamilla:

Hi Kamilla,

Actually I thought it was very respectful behavior. While I waited, you were the one who suggested I read your posts. I saw a very public person who was not kind nor respectful to the opposition. If you have something to say to me in the way of correction, I am willing to listen publicly. If you have nothing to say in the way of correction, I completely understand.

No problem, I will inform those waiting to hear what you had to say.
Ephesians 5:15

Warmly,
Cheryl Schatz

While many would welcome a correction given in secret, I welcome a public “correction” if the one doing the correcting is especially prone to the type of rhetoric and insults that is common on the baylyblog. If Kamilla chooses to change her mind and wants to dialog in this respectful format, I am very willing to talk and I am willing to listen and consider her words.

Justa Berean,
It is the human Son where the human will was in subjection to the divine will. Since we all agree that the human Son of God submitted to the Father and there was a will under submission, we must look outside the incarnation to prove an eternal submission of the Son’s will. The problem is exactly what you have stated. If the Son never uses his will and always submits to the Father’s will, then we know that the Father’s will is always in opposition to the Son’s will. That doesn’t sound too good does it? It kind of makes the Son out to be less than perfect if his will is never in agreement with the Father’s. However when we see the Trinity in the scripture there is never any member of the Trinity in opposition to the other members. They have one perfect will in unity.

Suzanne,
Thanks for your comments! I have noticed, though, that there are men who have disagreed with the Baylys and I have not seen them asked to be quiet. I do have to admit that I haven’t read everything they have posted, so I could stand to be corrected. If they have also asked men to be quiet, then you are right, it would not be your gender but your position that would make them tell you to be quiet. I also got the distinct impression that they were referring to scripture when they asked you to be quiet. 1 Timothy 2 comes to mind as well as 1 Cor. 14:34, 35. If that was the case, then it would be your gender on top of what you said 🙂 Again, I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.

I also am most interested in the Trinity itself as expressed in the pages of the Bible. The history of the church is far behind what the scripture says and the church fathers must bow to scripture. It is my intention to give a scriptural defense and I will be asking Kamilla to do the same. Once we have covered that, we can move on to other issues.

If the Father has a will and the Son’s will is different from the Father’s in that the Father must take authority over the Son, then there can be no Son’s will at all. A will that is never expressed is not a will at all. It is no different than one who has no will to begin with. Before the incarnation we find the Word of God as the LORD of hosts with will and action and plans. There is no sense that he has to ask permission or submit his will to the Father. It is important to identify the Son in the Old Testament so that we do a biblical test to find his will and if it is ever used.

I understand 🙂