Cheryl

Dusman,
Great reasoning! I never saw it that way, but great, great reasoning!

Great points, Don, Greg and Lin!

We will lay all of these false arguments to rest one at a time. The argument that God used a woman because he couldn’t find a man is used in the same breath as God used a donkey when he couldn’t find a man. It is insulting to God and insulting to the women that God chooses to use.

Good going Michael! We do want to tell the truth in a spirit of love and I think you are learning lots here. I am working through a new blog article in my head regarding this issue and your words have prompted me that this is the time for me to emphasize a few things. God bless!

Matt does has his problems with pride and arrogance and for some reason it comes out more when he deals with Christians than it does with cultists. It’s odd. He is supposed to LOVE his brothers and sisters in Christ. He also LOVES to call other Christians heretics and false teachers even when his disagreement with them is not on essential issues but on secondary issues where we have been given freedom to agree to disagree.

Jason,

Your quote: “JIP: What is jeopardized in these translations is the fact that, according to Scripture, masculinity entails leadership and femininity entails support. Patterns of cooperation between the sexes in which the man takes leadership responsibility are, on balance, healthier, because they are directly fitted to human nature in a way that a reversal of this pattern can never be.”

While we can see that the pattern of humanity since sin entered the world has been one of male domination, we simply do not see this instituted by God Himself. If it were, we would find that God would be guilty of contradicting himself. The pattern instead is one of giftedness and willing servanthood and both are signs of God’s leading not mankind’s leading. If God gifts a woman and then serves the body of Christ through her, who are we to tell God he cannot do this? Who are we to say that there is some unwritten “rule” that negates a woman being used in any position that may influence an adult male? The fact is that men and women are different and this fact reinforces the wisdom of having both men and women serve the body. Woman often give leadership/servanthood in more compassionate ways than many men do. Women balance out men just as men balance out women. True complementarity is balance. True complementarity is not exclusion of people due to their race, their gender or their social status. When we ignore true biblical complementarity we find ourselves in a human-centered program. God’s Spirit is best expressed through both His male and his female “sons” complementing, encouraging and supporting one another without prejudice.

Lin,

The name Jesus means YHWH is salvation. This name was given as an inheritance to Jesus:

Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

As the Word of God, Jesus was always God but in Philippians we find him humbling himself to also become man.

Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When we call on the name of Jesus we are calling upon the name of Almighty God YHWH because Jesus as the son of Man has inherited God’s name. When we call upon Jesus as Lord we are admitting that Jesus is the supreme Lord and Sovereign of the universe and this action brings great glory to the Father.

While I consider the issue of the Trinity and the subordination of the Son (as to the role of the Son) to be a serious issue and one that we need to address, I also would have a very difficult time saying that a person who believes this is not saved. Such a person believes in the Deity of Jesus, the Resurrection and Salvation by faith alone through Jesus alone. I know that many of these types are calling into question our salvation because we do not believe in the permanent subordination of the Son. They are wrong in calling into question our salvation. Should we turn the tables and call into question their salvation? Some may say yes, but I could not go that far. I do agree that it is a serious issue but one that we should work hard to defend and provide a solid apologetic defense while still keeping the communication lines open for our brothers in Christ. Right now I am back in communication with Bruce Ware even though he has wanted to stop communication with me. I have made it clear to him that I believe him to be a brother in Christ although I believe that he is very wrong in his view of Christ. These are issues to fight for in a strong way without me calling his salvation into question. In the same way, I appeal to our brothers and sisters in Christ who believe in the permanent subordination of Christ (regarding the “role” of the Son) not to call our salvation into question even though we do not agree on this issue. I consider this a matter of respect and choose to fight this battle with that kind of respect.

pinklight,
There will be much more on the Trinity as that is the subject I am working on for our next DVD.

Tiffany,
Good to hear from you! I look forward to continuing a conversation with you in your time.
Blessings!
Cheryl

Hi Michael,

You are right in the actions of God, all three are working together. Look in John 14 where Jesus promised to come to his disciples.

John 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Yet a few verses later it is both the Father and the Son coming to make their home with all those who love Jesus.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

The fact is that they work together in unity. The Holy Spirit is sent to us from Jesus from the Father and Jesus comes to us and the Father comes to us. It isn’t just one. It is all three.

Teknomom,

“What could possibly motivate people to want hierarchy in the church or the home– and even in the Trinity? Why do they always try to make a military or business model the assumed divine order, instead of friendship or family? How can it not be the sin of pride to want to lord over another believer?”

It seems to me that there are many even in the church who believe that the one who is the most important gets the privilege of “taking authority over” or “lording it over” others. But Jesus turned this notion upside down by saying that if one is seeking importance in the body of Christ one needs to seek for humility and servant-hood. The true leader gets under people and his/her lead is to lift people up and support them instead of a top-down leadership where the leader has people do his bidding and the people below him are serving him. Taking authority over others in the body of Christ is not God’s way but the way of the world.

Good thoughts, guys. Here’s another one. Do you know what one of the differences between Adam and Jesus are regarding both of them being husbands? Adam knew the truth and said nothing to his wife to stop her from being deceived. But Jesus does the opposite. He let’s us (his bride) know if something is not true. He said:

John 14:2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; …

Jesus is the perfect example of a loving, kind and faithful husband who warns us about deception.

Good scripture. It again shows the united will.

Good thoughts, Michael and Greg,

After having finished reading The Father Son and Holy Spirit, by Bruce Ware, I am very concerned about this subordination teaching in the Trinity that has crept into the church. The teaching in essence is that only the Father’s will is done. In my discussion with Bruce Ware, he has agreed to this point and we are still in dialog on some of his wording regarding the Supremacy of the Father. The problem is that if only the Father’s will is done from eternity past to eternity future, then the Son’s will in essence doesn’t exist. In what way can the Son’s will be considered a will if it is never used and never expressed? The teaching is that the Son has subordinated his will in every instance to his Father’s will. All this does is create a will of one person that is elevated and the will of another person that is subjected so that it is never expressed, yet scripture shows that in the Trinity the three have a united will. Only if the Son’s will is identical with the Father’s will can the Trinity have a true equality of essence because their united will is part of the essence of God. Anything less then Jesus having his own will which is also in complete unity with the Father’s will, would end up downgrading Jesus to be rather like a Stepford wife who has no mind of her own because she is just a mindless walking zombie.

It should also be noted that with several of the prominent complementarians, in their testimonies about their marriage, they have admitted that their wives were taken over by their actions as authoritative husbands and the wives felt like they didn’t really exist. Is this now how we are going to picture Jesus as one who has been “taken over” by the Father and one who never uses his own will in his place as God in the Trinity?

The interesting thing is that as I read scripture, I come away with hearing about our wonderful Savior and it is all about Jesus. Yet with Bruce Ware’s book the entire emphasis is on the Father who has the preeminence.

Zach,
Those of us on this blog love God and we love his Word. None of us want to practice games with God’s word. There is no such thing as “church headship”. The only “head” of the church is Jesus Christ himself and any man or any woman who wants to have this position is usurping the “headship” from Jesus.

There is also no such thing as a “pulpit” in scripture. This is man’s invention to elevate people to a position of having “authority over” others. We would do well to listen to Peter who cautioned leaders not to take a role of lordship over the body of Christ:

1 Peter 5:3 (ISV) Do not lord it over the people entrusted to you, but be examples to the flock.

As far as proving that men and women do not have differing “spiritual roles”, I would encourage you to get a copy of my DVD. I have a very high view of scripture believing that every word and every piece of grammar is God-breathed. If after viewing the DVD set you are able to refute the exegesis then I ask you to contact me and show me where I am wrong. If you can do that we are in a win-win situation. If you cannot show the errors, then perhaps at least you can see that godly Christians can have an extremely high view of scripture and view the scriptures in context to include both men and women in giving out God’s word and that God’s word does not force any Christian to withhold their God-given spiritual gifts from anyone or any group based on their gender.

The bottom line is that this secondary issue in the church concerning women is not something to divide over. We can love one another and treat each other with kindness and respect and not charge the other person with rebellion to God’s word.

Blessings and thanks for stopping by!

Thanks Justa Berean!

Hi Michael,

I am still in dialog with Bruce right now. I will be summarizing his viewpoint and then getting his approval to my summary. I will be able to share that with you. Right now it is still in the private stage between the two of us so I need to go to the next stage before I share it with the world. His view that Jesus should not be prayed to is one of the most troubling conclusions that he comes to in his complementarian view of the Trinity. I will email you privately.

Good thoughts, Michael!

Thanks Michael, I ordered the book.

You did a good job on your email. The fact is that the Father gives the gloried human Son all the authority and Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and then he turns over all the spoils back to the Father. The reason? So that God will be all in all. All together and with no further separation of the human Son and God himself. How will that all look? I have no idea but we do know that God will appear completely united as one. In the end there is no longer any need for the submission of the human Son since God will be all in all.

The problem of “equality of being with equality of function” is that the inequality of the function necessitates an inequality of being. For example if Jesus is not allowed to be worshiped by our prayers to him, then how is it that he is equal in his Deity? The essence of God is that he is worthy of being worshiped. When we are told that one of the three is not to be prayed to then his essence as God is called into question. You can’t say that he is God but you can’t worship him. Now Bruce Ware does say that Jesus is to be worshiped as God, just that you can’t worship him as God in prayer. But I say that if you limit the worship given to Jesus in any way then Jesus cannot be God in the same way that the Father is God. Withholding any type of worship given to Jesus is illogical and unscriptural.

Hi Under Much Grace,
To be fair, Bruce Ware would say that he does believe very strongly in the Deity of Jesus. However his belief in essence works itself out in action as a limited celebration of honor so that the Deity of Jesus is celebrated less than that of the Father. What this means is that Jesus cannot be worshiped through the act of prayer because this part of worship is an honor given uniquely to the Father. The Father must be honored as the greatest in the Trinity and the worship of prayer must be given only to the greatest which is the Father. In essence Jesus is given limited worship and the Father given unlimited worship because of their levels of authority. Ware concludes that the Father must be given the highest honor and the greatest praise and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit have submitted themselves to a lesser place of honor because they both are under the authority of the Father and work only at his command. For some reason he does not see how this devalues the Son and the Holy Spirit. He believes that every relationship must have a “boss” and someone who submits to the “boss” and that this is a permanent fixture of both human relationships and the relationship of the Trinity. However this is a human way of doing business in a corporation and the Trinity is not a corporation but a full unity of three equals in one essence as God. If we define the Trinity as one “boss” having ultimate authority over the others, then we have degraded the Trinity into a big God and two little gods.

Justa Berean,

This seems to be the mindset of those who say that the Father has authority over the Son. In a hierarchy you appeal to the highest authority and for them this is not Jesus. Yet Paul did not see Jesus as a lesser authority who shouldn’t be prayed to. His letter of 1 Corinthians says this:

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours

So the saints are those who call on the name of Jesus. Stephen was one of these saints who called on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

Jesus himself berated the Pharisees who would not come to him to receive eternal life.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

We need to come directly to Jesus to have eternal life and those who teach that we cannot come to Jesus are not being faithful to the scripture in this matter. I believe the reason they are not following scripture is not because it isn’t clear, but because they want to have a higher authority to appeal to to prove that men alone have authority in the church. The problem with this is that they want to prove that women are to be subordinated to men because Jesus was subordinated to the Father. And they want to prove that Jesus was subordinated to the Father by citing that women too are like Jesus in that they are subordinated to men. All this is, is circular reasoning. I told Bruce Ware that whether women are subordinated to men or not has nothing to do with the Trinity. In the Trinity there can be complete equality and in humanity there still could be a subordination of women. The two are not connected in any way. He needs to defend his point of view from scripture alone and not be arguing in circles. The scriptures that he uses to support an eternal subordination of Jesus will be dealt with in a very strong way in our DVD as we cannot dance around the scriptures by ignoring what doesn’t seem to fit the teaching of complete equality in the Trinity. We must see what the difficult verses mean in context in order that the scriptures not contradict themselves. We believe this new teaching DVD will be a very important work in the debate on the Trinity and the subordination of women.

Thanks Michael! There is much in scripture that is tradition and not God’s truth. When we lay aside our faulty thinking and look deeply into God’s word without prejudice, it is amazing at what is there! May God bless you for being willing to see the truth and to lay aside what tradition has taught us.

One thing that I have noticed from the writing of one of the proponents of the eternal submission of the Son is that the Son is being downgraded to the point that it is taught that only the Father can be prayed to. This is Bruce Ware’s point of view. I am very blessed to be able to dialog with him about this and in my next email to him I would sure like to find out how he has a relationship with Jesus if he never talks to him and he advocates that others not talk to him either. These are the kinds of things that we need to lay to rest in our DVD because they are the “fruit” of the teaching of the eternal submission of the Son.

I don’t have the book Jesus and the Father but I understand that it is pretty much the same material as what is in the Trinity and Subordinationism which I do have.

From what I have read and have been told by complementarians is that egalitarians tend to appeal to church councils instead of the bible to prove their point. While I do agree that what church councils set up as the orthodox view of the Trinity, I also believe that one must vigorously defend the Trinity primarily through the scriptures thus that will be the focus of our DVD. This DVD will be deal with scriptures that others have ignored and it will also deal with the “troublesome” scriptures that seem to imply some type of subordination within the Trinity. We believe that our work will be unique in that it will hit the problem head on instead of bypass the scriptures in favor of man’s word. Even with that, we will have a section on the creeds and the church fathers because this will be used as a second and third witness, although not the primary witness to the Trinity.

Michael, I appreciate all of your thoughts here on this blog. I haven’t had time to answer everything that you have posted and so any questions that I have missed may have to be posed again at another time. I apologize for my lack of answering in a timely fashion. I have personally been overwhelmed with the struggles that our ministry has been facing from the government and the persecution that has followed who are intent on shutting up our witness of the gospel to the cults. Between that and my normal ministry work and the work on the Trinity DVD, I have been quite distracted although my heart is very, very passionate on the women’s issue just as yours is too. One person cannot do it all, but together we can all pull our resources and our talents and our God-given gifts together to make a difference.

Don,
You said:

“I noticed on CARM that the male hierarchicalists are left with claiming that Mary had no choice in getting pregnant. But a fundamental Biblical truth is that God never forces anyone to do something against their own will. To me, this just shows how one skewed interpretation (male hierarchy) results in a cascade of errors (eternal hierarchy in the trinity and God forcing people) in an attempt to justify the initial error.”

I couldn’t agree with you more. While scripture focuses on submission, hierarchy focuses on authority. While scripture focuses on the equality of the Godhead, they focus on whose the big boss. Lastly while scripture focuses on a willing heart and God imploring us to choose to say yes to him, they focus on an God forcing people against their will. I don’t see this as God’s way.

Thank you Molly! I can use all the help I can get.

Don,
You are right in this evaluation. The interesting thing is that Joseph was not brought to knowledge of what God was doing until after he had decided in his heart that he was going to divorce Mary. This appears to clearly contradict the teaching that the man’s oversight of the woman is necessary regarding decision-making. Joseph had no knowledge of Mary’s decision to allow herself to be the mother of the Messiah and apparently both God and Mary did not see fit to tell him about the angel’s visit to Mary.

Eternal subordination certainly does have its roots in the cults. The question is why. Some may say because it is the truth and these groups found the truth in this area. However this should be a disconcerting thought to those who value truth.

One last thing…regarding a woman who has set her face toward a public ministry in direct opposition to her husband, I think she needs to be in much prayer to make sure that her desire is not from herself. Our own selfish desires may seem like they come from God, but if they cause us to devalue our mate, then we need to be careful because it could be ambition that drives us instead of God’s calling. God’s way is the way of humility and peace in the home. God knows how to work around the obstacles and sometimes it takes time and patience. If we push through when it isn’t time there can be disastrous results. If we wait for God’s timing, he will give us the desires of our heart.

Isaiah 40:31 Yet those who wait for the LORD Will gain new strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles, They will run and not get tired, They will walk and not become weary.