Charis,
Thanks for the links. They both worked so you are better then you thought!

Pastor Darlene,
I see the issue of calling in two ways. The best way is when both are there together in a supportive way. However I have seen a woman’s calling in obedience to God yet without disrespecting her husband. A man’s disobedience does not necessarily stifle a woman’s ministry. Through it all there is a period of growth and maturity as we learn how to serve the Lord with or without a supportive mate. While my own life is inextricably tied to my husband’s and his support is vital to my ministry, we have to be open too, I think, to the idea that God can and will use women whose husbands are not saved or who are in rebellion against God. It may not be the same open ministry they would enjoy if they had a supportive partner but I think that God’s hands are not tied on behalf of a woman who yearns to be used by God but whose circumstance is anything but perfect. A behind-the-scenes ministry of encouragement can be just as valid as a up-front ministry. Faithfulness is what is required and God’s grace to keep respectful in spite of a man’s opposition. In the end I think we all desire to have a husband working together with us serving God in a one-flesh union.

In my research on this subject I am reading Bruce Ware’s book Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have also written Dr. Ware asking him some questions on his material and he is corresponding with me. The implications of his view are quite amazing and it appears that the questions that I am asking him are ones that he may not have reasoned through yet. I have a bunch more questions for him that I am going to be very interested in hearing his clarification of. Fascinating!

Tiro,
This is well said! I am trying to think if there is any example in scripture where a man or woman was called by God where the other spouse did not support them. The only example I can think of that might even be a little bit related to this is where David danced before the Lord when he brought the ark back and Michal was not happy with David’s exuberant worship. 2 Samuel 6:14-23. It says that Michal was childless until she died, but it is unclear to me whether this came as a result of David’s rejection of her or the Lord’s.

To me, though, the highest form of service to God is when the two who are one flesh and work and move in union. I believe that this is God’s highest way too. But will God be thwarted when one holds back? David kept on serving God whether his wife liked it or not. Hmmmm….what do you think?

One other thing, Mary had Joseph had not yet come together physically as husband and wife but in the culture of that day their engagement was a binding contract that could only be dissolved through divorce. They in essence were husband and wife but had not yet completed the final physical act of coming together.

Pastor Darlene,
I do understand what you are saying. I also believe that God works with both people in a marriage and when he calls one of them, he calls the other to support. Yet the spiritual decision between God and myself is individual and I do not need my husband’s support to serve God. Years ago after several years of marriage, God called me back to himself. I had not been following God and although I never stopped believing in him per se, I was not living out my Christian faith in practice. I was ashamed if anyone found out at work that I was a Christian. But God got a hold of me and my experience with God as I gave him complete control of my life was very profound. When I told my husband what I had done in my heart he was very angry with me. He was interested in doing his own will and he didn’t want God in his life. I told him that I really wanted him to join with me in serving God, but if he would not, I would serve God with all my heart by myself. My decision had been made with or without him and this decision did not need to be filtered through him.

It didn’t take long and my husband too had made a decision to follow Christ and to give up the control of his own life. My decision to follow hard after the Lord will always be there whether my husband joins with me or not, but in the area of ministry I really do need my husband to work with me. I am submissive by nature and I am not a loner and a long time ago I told God that if he really wanted me in ministry that he would have to work this out through my husband because there are some things that I just don’t do well by myself. I really need my husband and together we are a solid force of two yet one.

So in the question whether a woman’s decision must be filtered through her husband, I would say that it is always wise for the one flesh union to work together and talk things over to come to a mutual decision. However my obedience to God is not dependent on my husband’s obedience.

Doretta,
Thank you for your comments. You are very right in that much if not most of the time we do not need to defend ourselves against an attack. When we do need to give a defense, it should be done in love and respect for the audience who may need to see Jesus in us. The Holy Spirit is definitely our help in living a respectful example so that we can keep on with our business of giving the gospel out until Jesus comes.

Thanks Charis for keeping me informed. I am glad that there is some good from what I started. That is just one forum I won’t be going back on and I guess it isn’t quite as much fun for them to roast me when I am not there to see it 🙂

pinklight,

Mary did have a choice and we can see that by what she said in response to the angel. First of all the angel said to her that “you will conceive”. He didn’t say “you have already conceived”. In response Mary said:

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Mary gave her agreement to what was given her as a prophecy. Joseph did not have the opportunity to give his agreement. When Joseph found out it was a done deal already. Mary was already pregnant when Joseph was told that she was expecting a child. His divine revelation did not come until after he already knew that she was expecting. This is quite revealing. Joseph was not told ahead of time that Mary would become pregnant. He was not even told by the angel that she was pregnant. He wasn’t divinely contacted until he had already made a decision in his heart to divorce Mary.

The fact that only Mary was approached in advance shows that only Mary’s willingness to be be a willing vessel was needed. She did not need to turn to her father to get his okay, nor did she believe that she needed to get approval from her husband. She accepted what God said and she didn’t even tell Joseph what happened to her. If Joseph was Mary’s boss because he was her husband, then surely we would have seen Mary inform him Joseph of her soon-to-be motherhood. This did not happen.

Kerryn,
This is the big thing that is the downfall of complementarians. Not only are they inconsistent, but they have no “rule book” to be consistent with. There is no “Christian Talmud” that gives all the things women can do and the things that women cannot do. CBMW has certainly tried to created a “Christian Talmud” but they have failed in that they still see many things as gray and even they do not have any clear-cut answers. In the meantime, the inconsistency grows.

Tiro,
I will have to find my Talmud studies to get the quote and book/page number for you. It might take me some time to find it but I will look as I have time.

Don,
Yes, you are right in that being Jewish had as much to do with circumcision as it did with the blood line. In my reading in the Talmud I came across the Pharisee idea of hell. All uncircumcised men went to hell and no circumcised (Jewish) man went there. However if a Jewish did something really bad to his Jewish brother when he died in the afterlife he would have his foreskin sewed back on so that he could be sent to hell.

I haven’t done a research project yet on the paternity issue so I don’t know first hand how or why they would go through the woman’s line. It all sounds very interesting.

Charis,
It took me a long time to get to the issue of marriage regarding women in ministry. I originally didn’t want to deal with it however it is so interconnected with the subject of ministry and it is used as a emotional argument to stop women from using their God-given gifts for the benefit of men, that I could not forever stay away from the issue of marriage. i.e. if you let women minister in church then men will no longer have a loving/obedient wife at home and they will have lost all “control”. It is about time that we seriously talk about what “control” that God has ordained and if he has ordained it, to what extent does it exist? Should be fun as we pull back the blinds and have a peek behind the source of these traditions and what is and isn’t scriptural. I hope that we can do this with much gentleness and grace yet without sidestepping any truth from scripture.

Good point, Greg, I hadn’t thought about that. Timothy’s mother was a Jew and that made Timothy Jewish.

The point about the man cleaving to the woman had always seemed a contradiction to me too because it didn’t fit with the mandated women’s submission role that CBMW says is biblical from creation.

One question…does anyone know how things have fared on Matt’s discussion board? Have I been properly buried and the grave stone marked yet?

FYI I lodged a formal complaint with the radio station that Matt has his program on and I spoke to them yesterday. There may be some very good things that come out of this mess and if/when these things come to pass, I will keep you all informed.

teknomom,
I loved this:

“Actually, a blue lens would make the blue verses invisible. They undoubtedly use something with a little more contrast.”

You are sharp today! Let me add my two cents worth. I think they view the bible with a pink lens because the godly example of women leaders in the bible (the pink verses) have miraculously disappeared. After all didn’t God only use women because he didn’t have any men whom he could use? Lots of pink was used to bring this view into focus.

Hi Greg,

I did notice that CBMW doesn’t have an open forum where people can dialog. A person can email their comments, but they don’t make the comments for all to see. I am not sure what they are afraid of. Perhaps some egalitarians might as them some hard questions? 🙂

I found this quote quite interesting:

“Recovering from feminism must first start with an embracing of the Gospel of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Only then will we see the roots severed because we will be clothed in the humility of Christ, who willingly submitted himself to the Father on our behalf…

Rather, feminism rises up in ordinary women in our congregations, homes, and in the least obvious place, the mirror. Feminism is in the core of our hearts apart from the saving work of the shed blood of Christ, and not simply because we are militant against male authority, but primarily because we are opposed to the greatest authority of all—our Creator. The feminist is not some abstract “out there” woman. She is staring right at us every morning when we put on our make-up.”

While I do not consider myself a feminist because of the very negative connotations with the word, it is continually amazing to me that CBMW considers complementarianism as part of the gospel and must be accepted or one is guilty of opposing God.

Here we have the addition and subtraction rule:

The gospel + (plus) complementarianism = salvation

The gospel – (minus) complementarianism = opposition to God

How sad that there are those who should be keeping the gospel pure but instead are willing to add in their own view of the secondary issue of women as a mandatory part of the gospel message. It is especially sad because many highly educated women of the world will not darken the door of the church because they cannot embrace a God who would see them as inferior. These women are very well aware that whenever one is stopped from using one’s gift for the benefit of a particular gender, that means that one is considered inferior.

Greg, I am so glad that you are here and that our little community (a.k.a. little Rhode Island) is active and affirming of women’s gifts.

Charis,

I do not use the word “heretic” lightly as many do in the church. In this case I would use the word “deceived” because Rick has not chosen to test his visions by the word of God. This is the same thing that happened to our former youth pastor. His visions contradicted scripture but he refused to let anyone test them against scripture because he was so enthralled by the power that the spirits in his vision gave him that he could not for a minute think that a Christian could receive visions from anyone else but God. The fact is that many people claiming to be Christians have received visions that contradict scripture. Scripture tells us to test all things and visions are part of the “all things” that are to be tested by the measuring stick of God’s word.

Unfortunately there are Christians who are easily led by strong leaders who also see those leaders as a type of god who is not to be questioned. Unfortunately that is how I see Matt’s followers. They do not question Matt and the ones who do get censored. That is how the cults keep their people unified. They insist on conformity and they kick out any who question the leaders right to rule.

Keep testing all things like you have been. Don’t hold to anyone’s leadership without testing them by God’s inspired word.

Don,
Amen!

I believe that what John is writing about is the fruit of practiced sin. In other words this is the habit that one practices i.e. one practices hatred and therefore unforgiveness. A true Christian may hate and have unforgiveness but a true Christian will not stay in the situation because as John says one who practices sin is not born again. We sin, we repent, we live in victory and then we sin again. In the life of the true Christian there will be repentance. There has to be. Jesus said that if we do not forgive someone who has wronged us, neither will the Heavenly Father forgive us. Forgiveness is not an option but a requirement.

The problem with Matt’s followers is that they are practicing hatred. I do not know where the division comes between sinning and practicing that sin as a habit, but the fruit is not good.

I too know what it is like to hate. When I let hatred rule my life I could not have peace with God. It was impossible for me. But when I let it go, God gave me peace. Years ago I had to do that with my husband. I had no love for him but God told me to love him. I started by telling him I loved the shirt he was wearing or I loved the way he combed his hair. I did as much as I could and the amazing thing is that he responded. After a period of time, I got back my love for my husband and he was treating me differently. We still had lots of problems to work out because we both still were under the hierarchical mindset, but in time God worked that out too and several years ago we both came out and we are VERY happily married. I adore my husband and I wouldn’t be married to anyone else. I no longer have any feelings of hatred and because I practiced what God gave to me, I came free in Christ.

Sometimes practicing forgiveness and practicing love doesn’t change anything in the other person. That certainly is possible. But what it does is free You to experience the best that God has for you. I know what it is like to dream about divorce because I was so unhappy in my marriage and to go from that to a one-flesh union where my husband respects me and gives me everything I need to be emotionally happy.

So again, what John is talking about is practicing hate. A true Christian cannot continue to practice hate and experience God’s love and the same time. There has to come a time of confession and repentance. God will turn things around and he can do it little by little as he did it with me. I hated and I repented and I am now whole. Those who stay in the hatred and who do not repent will never know God’s freedom and their sins will not be forgiven. Jesus said this and it is very, very important to pay attention.

I will email you later regarding this issue.

Blessings,
Cheryl

Thanks for your comments, Michael. I will be doing another DVD on the women’s issue, God willing, but it will have to wait until a couple more DVD projects are finished.

Blessings,
Cheryl

Thanks Greg. Freedom is a WONDERFUL thing!

Teknomom,
I have downloaded your article and will go through it as I have time. Thank you for taking the time to put this piece up and for thinking of my opinion as worthy of consideration.

It is not only possible but necessary to express disagreement with love. Matt simply does not practice this. In fact he seems to get his jollies from being obnoxious. Now lest anyone think I have just called him a name, let me say that Matt has described himself as one who is gifted in being obnoxious. I disagree that this is a gift. This is rather the world’s way of handling disagreements. When Matt learns to disagree in a loving way, then his ministry will flourish with both the church and the cults. He has the wisdom in a lot of areas to do a lot of good. His way of handling disagreements with Christians is not biblical. Even though he has called me a godly woman, I have never felt any love from him and he has said not one good word about my personal ministry to Jehovah’s Witnesses. It seems that it suits his style to ignore the good and lift up the disagreement on a secondary issue as if it is the entire focus of scripture. Matt’s stated purpose is that he personally is out to stop women from serving in their God-given gifts when they are teaching or preaching with authority to men. I don’t know where he gets his authority to do this. Nowhere in scripture does it say that one of the duties of an elder is to stop the women from teaching the bible with authority to the men in the body of Christ. Matt has gone above and beyond his “role” in scripture and as a teacher he will have to answer to God for what he is doing.

In the meantime I agree with teknomom that we need to be going about our Father’s business using our gifts wherever we can. We do not need the approval of the good ol’ boys club and we don’t need to stop because Matt gets in our face. We just need to serve Jesus with all our hearts and do everything to please him and bring him glory and honor. When we stand before God he will only want to know what we have done for him. We must obey God rather than men and no mere man including Matt can stop a godly Christian woman from using her God-given gifts for the benefit of both men and women.

Don,
This proves my point that a heretic is not a heretic in one secondary issue. The term heretic must be kept for those who are distorting the gospel of Christ. We do not have partial terms for heretics because heretics are heretics not brethren in Christ. I do not see how Matt can call me a godly woman and a sister in Christ and then berate me as a heretic and let others do the same. One simply cannot be a Christian and a heretic at the same time. Which is it?

Paul went from stopping the deceived teachers in 1 Timothy 1 to saying in 1 Timothy 2 that prayers are to be made for all men. If one is deceived then logically one should pray for that person not call them condescending names. Paul spoke about this controversy in 1 Timothy 2:8

1 Timothy 2:8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

Paul had already told Timothy that men are to pray for all people and now he says that they are to pray without wrath and dissension. Our love for our brothers/sisters in Christ will cause us to pray for them not to call them names. Name-calling is a divisive ungodly way to deal with these issues in the Christian faith. Anger and dissension are not God’s ways but man’s ways.

Don,
It is the fruit of Matt’s ministry that causes his followers to rip at the sheep. As they continue to tear me down, I trust that God will use this to open many people’s eyes to the sick fruit of the hierarchical movement. When these true Christians are sick enough of the vitriolic nature of the this entire mindset, I trust that they will leave that camp. A true Christian is one who loves the brethren and will not stand to see the attacks against a fellow Christian over a secondary issue in the church. It is indeed sobering that these folks speak evil with one side of their mouth and claim to know and love Christ with the other side of their mouth.

Since Matt has publicly claimed that I am a sister in Christ and a “godly woman” then the name-calling over secondary issues and the hatred that spews forth from his followers shows from their fruit that 1 John 2 applies.

1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Jesus has commanded us to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is not an option but a command and John goes on:

1 John 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

52 Charis,

“They sound like mean, unchristian bullies, but they are really afraid. Afraid of losing control/power.”

I believe you are right. Sometimes people speak the loudest when they are the most afraid. When who make it their business to stop women from using their God-given gifts for the benefit of the entire body of Christ often are just protecting their own position. There is great fear that they are hiding.

I am a very gentle person by nature and for Matt to claim that I personally am tearing the church apart because I have produced a very persuasive video series on the women’s issue, just shows his own insecurities. If the work was my own human effort, I can guarantee you I would be ineffective. Rather in my weakness the Lord is strong.

74 teknomom,

“We can preach freedom for women to them the same way we preach salvation to the lost. We don’t have to belong to their clubs to do it. But we can get the message out, and provide fellowships to welcome them. Maybe we should stop entering the dens of wolves and just stand outside and preach.

We don’t need buildings, budgets, bake sales or backing. We don’t need accolades or approval. All we need is to practice the Christian community as the NT tells us, and to bring the truth with us as we go about in life.”

Wow! Very profound! Thank you for contributing this. And I for one will be staying away from wolf dens and I desire that this forum will be a welcoming place for any complementarian who desires to fellowship with us in the Lord Jesus. When we offer love and respect, I believe that eventually the honest hearted ones will respond as they see Jesus in us.

72 Lin,

You said:

“Cheryl, I am so grieved to hear what is happening with the Canadian Government and your ministry. Moving may not be fruitful as I suspect the US is not far behind. I pray that God will be Glorified and the Gospel proclaimed.”

I too believe that the persecution is bound to intensify until we are all persecuted for righteousness sake. The fact is that the cults are protected under Canadian law even while they rail against the church saying we are all of the devil, while those who bring the gospel to those in the cults are persecuted and sanctioned. Yet my heart says that there is often a cost in following Christ and the discouragement of this action cannot cause me or any of us to retreat. We were genuinely shocked too at first but we have resolutely set our faces to carry on no matter what happens. No one said that ministry would be easy and so it goes on.

“The biggest shock to me over the past 5 years has been the vitriol coming from professed Christians. I have been the recipient of it in devastating ways. We forget that the way is narrow (Matt 7) and that many will not be acknowledged by our Lord. This is a wake up call for all of us.”

I have seen some of this shocking behavior from Christians before but never to the extent of what I have seen because of the women’s issue. The one thing that encourages me about the strong and growing vitriol in the complementarian camp is that it is causing some to have their eyes opened. The fruit of this teaching is speaking volumes to those who are desiring to be Christ-like. The best thing that can happen to the complementarian camp is for there to be more people on the extreme end that will be like Matt who is set in his mind to die holding women back from using their God-given gifts in the pulpit. The more extreme they become, the more people will become grieved and they will leave as they see the true divisive nature in this movement. Their worst enemy is their own militant leaders.

“To make keeping women out of ministry the focus of ones life and ministry is scary.”

I agree, it is very scary. The problem many will have in leaving hierarchy is that their work will be seen as worthless if they have spent all of their time and resources on stopping godly women. It will be a real humbling experience to admit they have been wrong and their entire ministry has been based on a lie.

“You may never know the impact you have had on people with your ministry. The grace and love you show toward those who disagree is contagious. Your ministry about women did not change my mind so to speak…it drove me to scripture to study deeply to see for myself. I am sure that is your intention. One thing I realized is that I did not have the creation account correct at all. And that is the foundation for everything! I owe you a debt of gratitude.”

Lin, I really, really appreciate this word of encouragement. You are correct in that I was trying hard to force people to get their nose into scripture and to rethink the traditions that do not have strong biblical roots as we supposed they had. Once the foundation is shaken in the man-made tradition, we have an opportunity to show how God’s word does not contradict itself and we can hold to both the inspiration of scripture as well as biblical equality.

“You are a wonderful, godly teacher.”

I am humbled by your words.

70 Dina,

Sorry that I didn’t get a chance to see your comment earlier and free it from the moderation box.

You said:

“I just wanted send a quick note telling you that I think you’re a wonderfully kind and gentle person. Don’t let people tear you down. Although, I like Matt Slick, he’s barely a blip on the radar in the Christian world so I wouldn’t worry to much about what he says about you. I’ll write back later, keep your chin up. God bless you sister.”

My dear, you are a real answer to prayer for me today! I appreciate your encouragement and knowing that you are one from Matt’s side brings me a GREAT amount of comfort that the Lord has been gracious to me. It is difficult enough going through the attacks and trying hard to show God’s patience through it all and to be told that Matt was the hero patiently enduring me and I in essence was the villain when I never once attacked him or called him names as he did to me, was just hard to bear. Then you step forward and speak a word of kindness to me. Thank you!! I trust that God will bless you for this.

Michael,
Thanks for your thoughts. It is a sad state of affairs that the church has been responsible in holding people back from their full equality in the body of Christ. I believe that one day we will look back at the women’s issue and see the hierarchical movement as an embarrassing part of our history. May the Lord grant that day to come soon so that our dear sisters in Christ will be free to teach us all with the gifts that Jesus has given them!

Dennis,
I have access to the books now, it is just a matter of finding them and finding the references. It will take some time because of what is on my plate right now, but I think that this would be very helpful to post here. The historical references are a very important consideration. I can’t tell you exactly when I will get the references up but if you have chosen to be notified about the addition of comments, then you will get an email. It probably would be good to do a specific blog article on the evidence as well. Right now I am in heavy research project which will be part of a DVD teaching on the Trinity so I will squeeze in what I can.

Blessings!
Cheryl