Cheryl

Justa Berean,

Good thoughts on this often misapplied verse. Thanks for being around when I was too busy to answer. It was a great help for me!

Charis,

I appreciate all the kind words that you have said and the fact that you have agreed this blog is not about following a person or a personality but about following our Lord Jesus! I will probably email you personally sometime this week because I want to respond to some precious things that you have said that I read but now am having problems finding the posts after being gone for over a week. Sheesh, even I can get overwhelmed in my own blog comments!

Terri,

Regarding your comment #132, thank you for keeping up on the CARM discussion board and your comments here. I fully agree with you regarding your observations. I also really appreciate the patient attitude that comes across from the egalitarians on Matt’s discussion board especially those who post here too! The way I figure it, this is the way that will plant seeds and change people for the good. It isn’t sometimes what you say but how you say it. The barbs that fly from the complementarian posters would cause me to pause and consider the source if I was a silent watcher on Matt’s discussion board. The lack of love speaks louder than their arguments. I really don’t understand how they think they can influence others for the good without a spirit of compassion and love. I know that I for one need kindness to get past any of my blind spots. I learn from those who are patient and kind and God’s way is always the way of the fruit of the Spirit. Those who refuse to show this fruit in their discussions seem to me to be just a clanging bell that will be ignored.

David,

Your witt has me laughing out loud so early this morning! Thanks, my friend! I needed to see this verse that way to get a real smile!

Donna,

Thank you for your encouragement! Yes, courage is needed and also a strong reasoning ability from the scriptures, but our attitude too needs to be with love and respect. I have been amazed at the attitude of the complementarians who go on line to dispute the women’s issue. Their lack of love and patience with brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with them over this one secondary issue is telling. My goal is to be transparent so that Jesus can be fully seen in me. I know that love is what reaches me and if I was the one who was wrong, I would want a loving, kind and patient Christian to help me see my own blind spots. Those who argue without love, without patience and without kindness do not show the very essentials of the faith. This is the essential for Christians:

John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

For everyone else online here on my blog….I am back after more than a week away on a ministry trip. I am tired and still jet-lagged but I do look forward to carving out some time to post back on my own blog. It looks like all of you fine folks have been communicating with each other quite nicely while I was gone. I am grateful that you have come to this space to share your thoughts with me and all of the others here who love Jesus and who desire to see women empowered to minister with their God-given gifts in the entire body of Christ.

Blessings!
Cheryl

Charis,

I now think I can understand where you are coming from. I have little time this morning as we ready to leave on our week trip, but I do want to tell you that I almost lost my daughter because of Rick Joyner’s books and I would warn you to be very careful. For most people I would just tell them to stay away from the books but for you I think you can learn from the things that I learned that saved my daughter. Rick Joyner’s main problem is that he gets these visions where the people in his visions (angels, Jesus, dead saints and OT saints) reinterpret scripture. The dead speak to him in his visions and actually contradict scripture. My daughter was deeply involved in this and so was a former youth pastor at our old church. He had prayed to have his own visions and like Rick Joyner he too found himself talking with the dead who spoke things that contradicted scripture. My daughter had come to the place where she believed that it was fine to talk to the dead because she was an avid reader of Rick Joyner’s books.

The problem that complicates the matter is that Rick Joyner advocates an internal war in the church between those who are “spiritual” (are they the “blues”?) and those who are not (my memory fails me but I think they are the “grays” or something like that) and anyone who doesn’t follow Rick Joyner and accept his interpretations is the enemy. The enemy has demons on them peeing and defecating on them. When one points out the errors of the visions of Rick Joyner, they are considered the enemy and are considered on Satan’s side. This is where we just about lost our daughter. The former youth pastor ended up leaving our old church and took much of the youth with him. He had written his own book about his own visions of talking with the dead and my daughter was editor of that book. It is a long story but a sad one where we fought hard to save the young people who had become followers of the youth pastor and his visions. We were successful with our daughter and she is safe but we lost most of our youth. As a result of our working with the elders of our church, (we had educated them concerning all the deviation from scripture that the dead people in our youth pastors visions were teaching) our church banned the youth pastor’s book from the church and that particular pastor ended up leaving the church because he refused to come under discipline because of the unscriptural nature of his book and he pretty much took the youth group with him. They went where they could all experience the supernatural without having to test these experiences by the word of God.

It was personally a very scary time for us but one that solidified in our hearts the warning about testing all things. It doesn’t matter where the teaching is coming from, we must test all things by God’s word or any of us can fall into deception.

I hope that you are still open to hear what I have to say and that I am not now considered the enemy. My job in the body of Christ is to (lovingly) point out error and to expose false doctrine and to lead people back into the solid foundation of truth found in God’s word. This is why I am always saying on Matt’s board that we need to test all things and to hold fast to what is good. Nothing (including tradition) is to be beyond that test. Tradition and experience can be good and wonderful things, but when they refuse to tested by scripture the alarm bells start going off in my head. I never want to be one who is led astray so I am constantly checking the inspired words and the inspired grammar so I can know that I have a solid foundation for my belief. It is this strong conviction and the amount of work that I put into understanding scripture in context that allows me to speak out with such confidence. I have done my homework and I am able to challenge faulty tradition without fear.

Respectfully and with much Christian love,
Cheryl

Charis,

Thank you for that encouraging word! I think it is what I need to hear today. It is so easy to fall into the trap of thinking that someone who is mocking you will never be open enough to hear the truth and then we just move on to others. But God is able to bring redemption whenever and to whomever he chooses.

I still haven’t forgotten all of your questions and your ideas. I spent time this morning putting one of my articles onto one of my web sites that I haven’t used for anything else but space for audio testimonies and I linked to that article onto Matt’s site and then figured out how to copy the article with the graphics so that those on Matt’s site can be blessed by it too without having to go off of his discussion board. I appreciated that you got my mind going on how I could do that. Unfortunately that again left my own blog without my attention. Ahhhh!!! We leave tomorrow for a week in Pennsylvania on a ministry trip and when I get back I will take the time to go through all of your questions. Your questions were just excellent but they do need work and thoughtful attention. I intend to provide that thoughtful attention no matter how long it takes me!
🙂

Much Christian love,
Cheryl

Charis asked:

Can you post links to the articles on your blog which address your points? I especially think that the diagrams in your article about Eve really simplify what you are saying and make it easy to grasp. I found that revelation very redemptive.

I have been thinking about this and I think I know a way to put my article on another site so that I can link to it instead of my blog. The problem is getting time to do this before we leave on Tuesday for our week out of the country. If I get time to do this, I think it is a great suggestion. The pictures have helped a lot of people get an understanding to the issues of Genesis and Adam and Eve and I think that pictures speak better than 1,000 words do at times.

Thanks always for your great suggestions! I do take them to heart and ponder on how to do things better. I just need prayer to have more hours in the day!

Under Much Grace,

You said:

In June, I introduced the problems of patriarchy on a few internet forums and found that most people accused me of gossip and of personal criticism rather than doctrinal or praxy problems among the leadership in the so-called “Biblical Patriarchy” movement. Because I pointed out that a significant portion of these doctrines were not Biblical, I was accused of calling several ministers and para-church organization leaders “bad men.”

The problem I see is when people pull on a person’s “security blanket” i.e. patriarchy, these people come out swinging and they will attack you with all kinds of false accusations and they will call you every name in the book. I have long pondered on why this is. Why would people who claim to know God and know his love, actually try to attack the person instead of what they consider to be false doctrine? I think it is because they do not have an answer to what we say. When someone is very much attached to their security blanket and then you pull on it and they don’t have an answer for what you are saying, they will come out swinging. But in my opinion, real mature believers will reason through the argument without an attack on the person not only because they really love the truth but also because they love their brother or sister in Christ. We are called to be truth lovers and we are called to love the brethren.

Lastly Don said:

9. If someone is given a ministry gift, do not try to force fit it into another ministry gift. If you are given the gift of being an evagelist, do not try to be a pastor, for example, as it can just lead to frustration. Accept whatever gift you have been given and use it to serve the body of Christ.

Don, you have been a blessing to me. Your words are written with great wisdom. This is a very wise word and something I will take to heart.

Don also said:

7. God can give another gift to anyone whenever he wishes.

8. I cannot find anyone called Apostle John or Prophet Agabus in the NT. What I can find is John, an apostle, or Agabus, a prophet. The point is that I look with skepticism on titles and look at what someone does.

This is the New Testament way. It seems that we have gone a long way from the way that the church was set up.

Don also said:

6. When someone is recognized with the above ministry (not office), the existing leadership (possibly non-local as in missionary) can lay hands on them and appoint them as an elder/overseer of the congregation.

This is exactly what I believe. While God gifts, we the people can recognize the gift and the maturity of another believer and the laying on of hands is given for us to recognize the leadership abilities of a mature Christian. Some pastors are elders and some are not, but the key thing in my article was pointing out that a pastor does not need a man to ordain him/her although they can be ordained as an elder.

Don,

You also said:

4. There are many others in the NT who are called apostles besides the 12 and Paul, none of these are said to be in an office. I do not see any offices in the new covenant besides Jesus as High Priest and the 12, which needed to be 12 to map to the 12 tribes of Israel.

I agree. There certainly was a special foundational type of apostle that was of the 12. But there were also other apostles in scripture. I believe each apostle and each pastor is gifted by God to be an apostle or a pastor. I really liked your analogy that an office is there whether a person is in that position or not. So we could say that the 12 apostles were apostles by gift but also apostles by a special office called “the foundation” of the church. Jesus, the 12 apostles and the prophets are called the foundation and the church is built on this foundation, with Jesus being the corner stone.

Kerryn,

Thank you for your words of encouragement and the info about your church. Your pastor sounds like a humble pastor – a true shepherd of God’s people!

Don,

You said:

3. I have heard that the lots MIGHT have been votes by the 11. Even if it was a random device, the Bible says “The lot is in the hands of the Lord.” so for me, the question is whether the 11 did it in faith, and I believe they did.

I too believe that the disciples did it in faith. I do not believe that God told them what to do hence their decision to cast lots (whether it was a vote or not isn’t the important thing since they were looking for guidance and a vote or a casting of the lot would have been interpreted as guidance) was not God’s choice. I sincerely believe that God allowed this example so that we could have a first-hand example of the difference between God’s choice when it comes to gifting and man’s choice. God has also given a clear indication that there was only 12 apostles so that just as you said when the actual apostles died there was no replacement for them only for the one who was not a faithful apostle, because in Revelation there are only 12 listed.

I also believe that God has given this example for us so that we can have confidence in our gifts. If we know that God has gifted us for an area but no one has voted us in, we can still pastor. I actually have been doing that for many years. For 16 years I hosted a support group for ex-JW’s in my home and I supported them in their difficult journey out of a cult and I taught them how to distinguish between true doctrine and false doctrine. This is a shepherding work and I didn’t need anyone to give me approval to do this work. We did submit to our church leadership and had the pastors in to the group to observe from time to time, but the work was being done not because any man put me in this position. I did it because I have a heart for the lost in the cults and I was compassionate with them and fed them with the truth of God’s word. This feeding and shepherding is what a pastor does and God’s calling can be followed even without a so-called church setting.

Thank you Jael!

Hi Charis,

I am going to try to get to the questions/comments on my blog today. I don’t think I am allowed to link to my blog on Matt’s site. They have an abundance of rules that makes linking to blogs a no-no. If you disobey their rules they can kick you off and remove all of your posts. It would love to link to my blog but I know they wouldn’t have it. They won’t even let me mention the name of my DVD. I asked if I could and they said I could it was part of the discussion, but when I did, it got edited out.

If anyone goes on Matt’s discussion board, the trick to not getting confused is to change the view to “linear” so that the posts show up in date order. The default view is confusing so say the least. The current discussion is on the major called CARM radio and there are several active threads regarding women in ministry. It has been all that I can do to keep up with the discussion and it certainly has taken my time away from here on my own blog. At least so far I have been given the freedom to teach my view.

I was listening to Matt’s radio show from just a couple of days ago and he is still talking about me! Amazing! He is saying that the “Cheryl-ites” as he calls them as well as myself are slandering him on his own discussion board and saying all kinds of lies about him that he hates women, etc. I know I haven’t even had a chance to read all the posts, but I read nothing of the sort. In fact the discussions have been on the issues not on a person. Well, that is except for the Carmites (what Matt calls his own followers) and some of them are pretty nasty and like to mock women in ministry every chance they get.

So Matt says on his program that he is allowing me to stick around (on his discussion board) because he wants me to answer his theological questions. I don’t know what he is going to do now that I have answered his questions. I asked him four of my own questions but so far he hasn’t answered any of them. I will keep you all posted on what is happening and my thought is to post some of the discussion here on this blog. It just takes time and right now time is a premium. We leave on Tuesday for a week long ministry trip and there is much to be done before then. When I get back I should be much less restricted time-wise (I hope!)

So I will be back here later today to attend to some of the comments/questions and I will get to as much as I can.

Blessings!
Cheryl

teknomom,
Great points!

Don,
I fully agree. I have wondered the same things as you have. If I had been disrespectful as some have, I would have been shown the door a long time ago. A mocking answer seems to be the only answer that they can give when they have nothing else to refute me. It is just so sad. This also answers why mocking and disrespect is the norm for these kinds of people. They believe that women are not allowed to teach with biblical authority and so automatically someone like me is a terrible sinner. This is how they treat sinners.

But scripture tells us otherwise. Brethren in Christ must be treated with love and respect and if they are in error, they are to be gently corrected with love. Fact is I feel no love from these people and it makes me wonder why. What is the true heart condition that shares no love with a brother/sister? I can’t help but be reminded of John’s words:

1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Justa Berean,

I agree! The thing that amazes me the most is when it is the women who are the strongest opponents to women in ministry. I do not understand what gives especially when they become especially nasty in tone. Someone said that they act/react in jealousy because they have been held back themselves. I don’t know. All I know is that when I was a complementarian, I could never have spoken in a unkind way to other women who were only doing their best to follow God with all their heart. It seems to me to be a real shame to have women fighting other women to keep them quiet.

One thing I am thankful for is that so far I have been able to speak freely without being shut off the board. That time may come though. I also will have to stay away from the discussion board after tonight so I can get other work done (if I can – I tend to like defending every little point of their contradictions!)

Charis,

I have copied a lot of what I wrote in Matt’s board and wanted to format it to put on my blog here for all to read. The problem I have had is that I have been so restricted with time. I have had little sleep in order to post late at night on Matt’s blog while my company slept so that I wasn’t ignoring them during the day. But having spent my energy and time over at Matt’s discussion board, there was no time left for this blog. My mother-in-law leaves this evening and then I will be back to writing and answering here. I still have some restricted time as we leave October 16th for a week on an out-of-country trip. When we get back I hope that my life gets back to normal. I love teaching and I love answering bible questions. Unfortunately this last few weeks there hasn’t been enough of me to go around.

I do think that eventually Matt will block me from his discussion board anyway since I ask him questions that he cannot answer nor can he afford to answer them. Anything that makes him look bad will certainly be blocked or perhaps he will just go back into the attack mode. It seems that an attack is better than answering questions (for him).

Well, back to my mother-in-law!
Much love,
Cheryl

Justa Berean,

Thank you for your encouragement! Yes, I feel that it is time to get back to my own blog and my own writings. I have put an amazing amount of time in on Matt’s blog. I got to bed this morning at 3 am and up again to make breakfast for my mother-in-law. She leaves Friday night.

I will be back shortly after that. Praise the Lord for the community here! I was getting tired of the snide remarks from those who call themselves Christians. The love of the brethren is not in them and that is so clear to see.

Charis,

Thank you for your prayers! I really have needed extra grace from God this week.

I will come back with my own thoughts regarding your other writing later after my article is up. I have to prioritize my work right now and that will be one of my next priorities, then I will be free to read over again and comment on all the comments here.

Much love,
Cheryl

Teknomom,

Ah, yes, now it makes more sense. Well, I won’t let him take me down the garden path. I won’t be answering his off-the-subject questions because I am very focused.

It has been a difficult time for me as I have ended up with almost no time for ministry while I have company and I was awake until about 3 am last night. I can hardly wait to get back to normal and back to this blog. I feel very inadequate when I have to focus on something else for the time being because of lack of time and then I put any minutes I have available into Matt’s discussion board and not on my own. But God knows the one(s) that he has given me to help and for this short time, I will help whomever I can and I will be back as soon as I can.

Justa Berean,

He is laying in wait with a trap. It’s not that you don’t have solid satisfactory answers. It’s because he has a plan to turn and twist what you say. And he’s good at it.

Unfortunately, I too believe this. I am not about to get into a debate with him on Calvinism and until he can tell us all why he is asking these questions, then I will not be taken off topic.

Thanks for your concern, you are a friend to me by sharing your concern.

Where?

Oh and one more thing….I haven’t had a chance to read the comments here yet. That will have to come another day. One thing at a time!

Hi folks!

Just popping in for a minute. I spent what time I had available today on Matt’s blog and I will have to sort through my comments so that I can post it here. I just ran out of time and it is now 12:42 am. (Go to bed, you say? Who me? Who needs sleep?)

Tomorrow is a big day for me and I may not get a chance to come back here to read and respond until Thursday. I have a new article that needs to be given birth to (hopefully soon) so hope you guys can have patience with me. Have you ever had birth pains with an article? I think the pains will be there until I can get it out. Oh, Lord, help me to have time for all the ministry that you have given me, without ignoring my family (my mother-in-law especially!)

Blessings my friends,
Popping out again until next time,
Cheryl

Charis,

You said:
Thank you, sis.
Listen, I’m going to pray for you.
You are so calm and level headed.
The Bible says “you will know them by their fruits”
Your good fruit shows, Cheryl.
Bless you.

I really appreciate your kind words! All I want to do is honor Jesus and follow the example he set up for us. Unfortunately that leaves me on the short end as far as debates goes because I do not want to sling mud and attack another person’s character. I just want Jesus to shine through me in whatever I do. I fall short of being that wonderful example more than I would like to, but Jesus has helped me step aside and let the Holy Spirit bear the fruit that doesn’t originate with me. I give all the glory to Him!

Much love,
Cheryl

David,

The editing on your posts concerns me a great deal. I am a lover of truth and when someone edits out their own words that you have quoted, it doesn’t sit right with me. This sounds very questionable and unreasonable and I wonder what he is afraid of. If one has the truth they shouldn’t fear having their “truth” challenged. Truth will stand the challenge. It is only “error” that runs and hides. That is very, very disappointing, but I guess many would say that it is typical of this kind of attitude. When one believes that they have the right to rule over others and force people to obey you or else, you have the makings of a dictator. Jesus said that those who lord it over others are following the way of the world.