Charis, yes that is it! No accountability. Who calls Matt to accountability? He shoots any who try and removes them. God will deal with Matt in the end and I sincerely hope that Matt’s eyes are opened before that time because he has a whole lot of explaining to do before God about his treatment of the sheep.

I don’t believe Matt’s lies. I do wish I could reach his audience. There are precious ones who do believe him and have given up ministry because of Matt’s influence. God is the one who called me into ministry and Matt Slick has no power over me to take me out of ministry.

This is the day that the Lord hath made. We will rejoice and be glad in it! Praise the name of the Lord who gives joy in the morning!

62 Yes he has called me deceived and also a deceiver (through Diane). I do not see how he can also call me a Christian sister and a godly woman, but he has called me those things as well on one of his programs.

“Maybe 1Tim 2:11-15 is God’s protection for women.”

Nope. And don’t worry about me. God has many difficult ways to mature me and I am not a runner. I refuse to stay away from things that will be for my benefit just because they are hard to take or cause me to have emotions. What won’t kill me will make me stronger. I heard this saying from a woman who was run over by a car and lost a good portion of her leg, lost a daughter to murder, lost another daughter to the JWs and because of the JWs had grandchildren born that she was not able to see. She is a precious Christian who has been through more struggles and more abuse than I could ever imagine. But her experiences have made her stronger and she did not run away. Women too have strength and emotions in no way lessens that strength.

Thank you Charis!

Matt said he will die fighting against women leaders in the church even if the whole church goes against him. He lives in Boise, Idaho and runs a web site and ministry called CARM. He has some good things on his web site that I used for helping a couple stay away from universalism, however his attitude of attacking anyone who believes differently on issues that he has deemed himself as essential would cause me to warn people to stay away from him. This kind of attitude is not godly nor is it effective body ministry.

Matt says that men’s position is to stop women from being pastors and elders. He also thinks that men’s position is to stop women from teaching the bible with authority. I didn’t get a chance to ask him but from what he has said and not said, I believe that he doesn’t allow a woman to teach the bible with authority to women either. Teaching with authority is a responsibility for men alone according to these kinds of hierarchists. Women may teach material that men have written and they may teach the men’s thoughts on scripture, but teaching any one with authority seems to be verboten. Maybe someone could peg Matt on whether a woman is allowed to teach women the bible with authority. Somehow I don’t think he would answer that question because he refused to answer my question on whether a woman (not a pastor) is allowed to teach the bible with authority to men.

Charis,
Women may be gifted as Pastors according to Ephesians 4:11. It is God who calls and gifts. As far as head pastors over men, I see nothing in scripture that says that one believer is to take authority over another believer no matter what the gender is. Our concept of authority and a single leader in a church is far from what the early church experienced and far from what the scriptures advocate. Leaders are to be servants not bosses. The leadership is to equip the saints for ministry. They are not to sent forth to bar the saints from ministry.

Don,

Thanks also for keeping me up to date without me having to go back on that abusive board. The fact that CARM’s VP keeps calling me “radio poison” shows that the charge is accurate. They are not just repeating a charge that they are not applying themselves to me. If someone went onto Matt’s board and said that others had said that Matt was ____ (fill in the blank with any kind of slander) then the person repeating the slander would be disciplined. Matt’s repeating of the charge was wrong and if he was a real confident man of God he would apologize for repeating it.

Matt had said at one point that he has no idea why no body would agree to go on the radio with him to debate the women’s issue. Well this is clearly the reason why. Matt is verbally abusive (he himself acknowledged that he was hard on me) and those who value love and respect do not want to be abused. The only reason I went on the program is because of some of the women I heard speaking about their calling into ministry and Matt telling them they are not allowed. I cared enough to be abused myself to help even one person. I have been praying that God will give me fruit. If I know that I have helped even one person because of what I have been through, then it will seem less of a struggle for me.

I also value accuracy and the problem with me is that I listened to two of Matt’s shows in one day and one of them was live. It was wrong of me to be confused about what show I listened to. I could make excuses about how I got confused but that wouldn’t help. When the Friday show was put up I was sure the live show was where the very unkind charge was and it wasn’t there. Because they put the show up in two pieces I thought it had been edited out. If the show had been put up in one piece I would have realized my mistake right away. I am not blaming them for my mistake. However because I was sure the charge was on the Friday edition, I had nothing to listen to again (I thought) and that is why I posted on Matt’s board.

The fact is that I screwed up and for a researcher who is nit-picky about details, it is frustrating (and wrong) to state something that you don’t have the material to re-listen to. The fact is also that Matt was wrong for stating such an unkind thing about me on the air. It really hurt me even more so than the charge of heretic. To call me poison (through another’s words), and one who is responsible for undermining the church is just over the edge. I am responsible for undermining the church? And Matt can get away with all of this because he hides behind someone else. Someone who shoots another believer in the back and hides behind someone else who has a gun in their hand might be called a name themselves.

The real problem is that I was teaching in the debate and Matt cannot allow a woman to teach on the radio. This reminds me of the Jewish leaders who stood as a gate before the people. Jesus said that they were not gaining entrance into heaven and they weren’t letting others who wanted to go in, go into heaven. Matt appears to be holding back my teaching because he doesn’t want people to hear it. The fact is that my exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:15 has never yet been refuted and this is the key conclusion of the entire prohibition passage in 1 Timothy 2. For Matt to say that he knows something that I don’t know is ludicrous. His claim to know the answer when he doesn’t he isn’t giving it out is like the tactics that the JWs have used with me. It is an appeal to knowledge that is never given out and that appeal is supposed to impress. Those who claim to have the answer but never give it out or who will not allow their answer to be publicly challenged are less than honest.

Charis,
You are right. Submission doesn’t mean obedience. Submission rather is an act of power under control.

Charis,
Yes Jesus did come to set the captive free. Deep hurt like this can cause real trust issues.

When you said you were stuck at 12, do you mean you were physically 12 years old, or that you didn’t mature emotionally past 12 even though you were older?

This is certainly a by-product of an abusive male ruler. The problem then becomes what to do about it. You cannot change another person, you can only change yourself. Funny thing is that abusive men often turn the sin around and blame the victim so that the victim gets victimized twice. This is what happened to Eve. She got deceived and then blamed by Adam for his own sin. Her solution is our solution. We need to learn how to know and trust the Lord Jesus. This is the journey of our lives and each test is a stronger one than the last one. I hope your journey will be filled with people who can speak into your life the words of life from the Master. Your healing isn’t dependent on your husband. You can get freedom and healing no matter what happens in his life. It is just easier if he gets healing as you do.

Thank you Jael! You are a mighty warrior friend!~

This is what I figured out – that the reason that there appears to be only CARMites on this board is that they kick out everyone who disagrees with Matt. Disagreement doesn’t have to be done in a uncharitable way, it just has to be disagreement and you are threatened and then gone. It is almost cult-like. The wrong questions are not allowed. In essence fear reigns or else one becomes a yes-man. This is what strict heirarchists do. They love to rule over others and their rules must be followed without question. Jesus said that this is the world’s way of authority but it is not to be so in the church. True biblical authority is servanthood and correct me if I am wrong, but I see Matt as being nothing like a servant. He is not empowering women to serve, he is constantly holding up the restrictions on women. I see it as Matt and others like him as strongly defending their own territory. They won’t accept anyone as pulling on their male security blanket. Is this possible that this is insecurity in who they are as males?

I admit, I allowed myself to get really low and then Jesus reached down and gave me such a spiritual hug that I know things will be okay. What happened? Well, I got a call this afternoon from a Messianic Jewish Rabbi who loved my DVDs and wanted to order more to put into a Calvary Chapel! I was told that my way of handling the opposition was so gentle and Christlike and my exegesis was excellent and very Hebraic. Isn’t Jesus good??

Justa Berean,
Thank you! It has all come at a bad time for me as it appears that Satan wants to tear down everything around me. I pray that God keeps me safe.

Don,
Thanks for letting me know about the 3 day suspension. They may as well make it 303 days because I don’t intend to go back. The unkind nature of this board is amazing. If they were atheists, I could see it. But the fact that they claim to be followers of Christ makes it all the more amazing. My eyes have been opened and I guess that is a good thing. Someone told me that they had come out of the complementarian camp because they could no longer stand the vitriolic nature. I heard it but I didn’t believe it could be that bad. Honestly guys, if you have seen a lot of this and survived with your heart still in tact, I give you so much credit for your tenacity. Guys, may I say that you are my heroes. I appreciate you more than I could ever say. Now I am going to go away and cry…. I am not as thick skinned as I would like. Maybe tomorrow. May the Lord Jesus get all of the praise for whatever grace he has shown me and that I have been transparent enough to let other see that it isn’t me but a tender Savior grieving for his flock.

Charis, one last thing. You said:

He used to call the children “stupid idiot!” and “if you had a brain it’s be lonely!”. When we got into marriage counseling, he changed it to “you’re ACTING like an idiot” and somehow thought that made it “right”. 🙁

I know what you mean. This kind of abuse is common from those who accept the hierarchical position that men are entitled to talk however they want because they are “in charge” and when they think it doesn’t look good, they can manipulate things to their advantage. It makes me feel very sad that there is so much turned upside down in this world. When men truly love their women, this is the first sacrifice to lay the foundation of a better marriage, better communication and a real one-flesh union. I trust that things will change for you because my heart goes out to you.

Charis,

I apologized because I got the date wrong. I also wanted to re-listen to the quote myself and couldn’t find it. I know that he said that I couldn’t come back on the program because I was “radio poison”. Quoting someone else bad mouthing me is wrong and using that to silence me is equally as wrong. However I did fail to be accurate in my date and I do love accuracy. Perhaps one can be tempted to be hasty if they are the one who has been maligned. I will not be back on his forum so anyone who wants to post there go ahead. The attitude of ripping at the sheep is just more than I can take. However I have learned that I can be called evil things (heretic, false teacher, radio poison) and still be okay. God has promised a special blessing when people say all kinds of false things against us and despitefully use us. I will pray for Matt, his wife and his kids. This attitude certainly must affect them too and I trust that Matt’s rudeness will not turn off people from the gospel. I have never felt loved or even liked by him and I knew that from the beginning. A year and a half ago he promised he would be kind and respectful but his original email to me was filled with mocking. I should have known that he likes to win the argument and he has no concern whatsoever for anyone who does not agree with him.

The dust is wiped from my feet and time to move on.

One other thing, yes I know what you mean about the apology thing. I have always apologized for everyone else’s sin but I have done so not because I felt a victim but because I didn’t feel a victim. If there was even a shred of evidence that I might be to blame for someone else’s hurt, then I do not want to stand in their way between them and the Lord. I would rather apologize and risk ridicule then to say nothing and in any way hurt my dear brother or sister in Christ. Some I know are not really brothers in Christ and we can get a hint of that because of the fruit that we see coming out from them. But in this life we cannot fully judge that. They may be a broken vessel just striking out in their pain. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt before I give up on them.

Don,

Thank you for posting this on Matt’s site:

“When a person chooses to repeat what someone else has said, it is that person’s choice. Even assuming someone told that to Matt, it was Matt’s choice whether to repeat it.

I cannot escape responsibility for what I say but claiming that someone else told it to me. It is ENTIRELY my choice what I say.

Also, for Matt to quote this and not immediately qualify it or repudiate it gives an implicit assent to it. Otherwise, why even quote it at all? But Matt did not do that.”

That is exactly how I took it. I wanted to hear it again myself but for some reason I thought it was the live broadcast I was listening to at the time not the recorded one and I couldn’t find the quote on the Fridays tape when it came up. However the fact is that Matt gave this as the reason for why he is not having me back, so then he has given public assent to the slander. I appreciate that you have posted on Matt’s board because I cannot go back there right now with all the attacks that have been given me. I was told by one poster that I was going to the lake of fire. I have had enough.

Justa Berean,

I stand to be corrected. I listened to two shows on Friday. One was live and the other one was recorded from Thursday. I must have the two shows mixed up. I only heard half of the live show on Friday. I was sure it was on the live show I was listening to but I stand corrected. So I go back and listen to the Thursday show and there it is. Repeating a slander is slander. Matt said:

“I’m not having you back on because people called you radio poison”

He is not having me back on because of people’s slander that he repeated. He needs to apologize to me for stating that I cannot come back on because of this slander. I apologize for quoting the wrong program. I listened to it on Friday but it was actually Thursday’s show.

Justa Berean,

The apologetic community is one community that I thought would not get so low. I was wrong. Sometimes I think that God allows this so that we can grow in grace in the very midst of the hate. I know that I have really grown in the last two years. One thing I know…I am not willing to give up serving the Lord because of the chaff in the midst of the wheat. We do need to keep our eyes on Jesus and his example is the only faithful example for us to follow.

I really appreciate your lifting me up as an example. I have felt very low today and I really needed that!

Don,

Thank you for your prayers. I agree with your points. I have already requested the audio file because Matt needs to be called to account. If he is left to this kind of behavior he is going to spin out of control. I have made it clear that if he publicly apologizes, then this is all that is required. I am doing the best to seek restoration. It is doubtful that he will comply without some pressure. I do not believe that I can change his heart but I would like him to think twice before maligning another Christian. The world needs to see our love not the attacks.

Charis, I agree that it is time that we all grow up. We really do need all of us in the body of Christ to benefit from all of our gifts. If we refuse to learn from someone just because they are not of our race or because they are not of our gender or because they are not of our social class, then we are missing out on what God has supplied for our growth. The body needs to grow together so that it isn’t lopsided. Everyone is needed and maturity is needed.

Hi Charis,

Thanks for your encouraging words! We have been looking at our options and will be pursuing an area that appears to be opening up to us. We are not worried that we will be shut down in the spiritual realm because we are not giving up. If things progress it will just be harder for us but not impossible. Our God is the one who called us into ministry and the enemy can roar but the Lord Jesus is the Lion who is sovereign and above all. We would prefer to stay the way we have been but if we are forced to start over without the government’s blessing, then so be it.

Justa Berean,
Diane says that she had a “technical” problem and it just so happened that the insult was erased by “God”. From what I can remember there is nothing else removed but the insult. I want to get the original tape and compare it and then the story will be clear. The fact though is that I was maligned on live radio and even with the insult gone now, it still was heard by many.

**Correction, I listened to two programs on Friday, one live and one taped and I got mixed up on which program the slander was on. The program is the Thursday program and Matt’s words against me are still there on the tape. It has not been edited out**

When will he stop this? It appears not until he is brought to account and even then he will likely continue. I asked several days ago when he will be answering my questions on his board. Remember all the questions he asked me? Well I answered them clearly with scripture and then asked him four of my own and he has never answered them. Tonight I got a response from his team that he will be dealing with the issue in an article on his web site when he has time. It appears that he will not subject himself to being cross examined by me on his discussion board. He won’t allow me back on his radio show to be cross examined on his radio program. He has indeed silenced me to the best of his ability. But he will have to answer to God for silencing the messenger.

Oh boy, does it feel good not having every word I say attacked! The attackers were many on that board and it gives a good look at the fruit that comes from the hierarchical rule where one man is the boss and people can be stepped on and stepped over at will. It isn’t attractive. I am really seriously going to have to get back to answering questions on my own blog. It is enough of answering questions on Matt’s blog for the time being.

Donna,

I loved this comment:

“Whoever has the greater insight into any situation has the greater responsibility to walk in love.”

What a responsibility we have. Thank your for your encouragement to stay balanced. Oh boy, that one is hard. I have so many responsibilities and directions to go in. I do need to take time to rest and I find that hard to do. May God indeed help me to be balanced!

Hey Justa Berean,

Thanks for your cyber hugs and for keeping us in your prayers. It is quite an amazing thing how those who are in control on CARM know how to take their own failures and turn it around make the one asking the question to be the one who is the one in the wrong. Since Matt called me “radio poison” on his Friday’s show, I am sure that my time on his discussion board is probably coming to a close. I will be requesting the audio file from the radio show to keep on record and wait for my requested apology from Matt. He will never stop attacking other Christians if he isn’t called to account for what he does. Honestly he is the most unloving radio host who is a fellow apologist that I have ever met. No one else has called me such names.

Donna,
One last thing, I do agree that Matt’s arrogance is where the problem is. However Matt is not one of the anti-charismatics in the Calvinist camp. Believe it or not he believes that the gifts of the spirit are still for today. Trouble is, he doesn’t believe that women’s gifts when used for the benefit of men are in the same category of men’s gifts. Women can teach the bible but they cannot do it with authority as 1 Peter 4:10, 11 say. It is a two-tiered system where women’s gifts can be used but they are inferior gifts in the eyes of men.

Donna,

I too had wondered why there was such a connection between Calvinism and hierarchical view of women and although there is still a great stronghold in this camp who hold women back, I have seen a wonderful breath of fresh air amongst Calvinists that fight this trend. Dusman mentioned a few of them who are highly educated and I will add that I have in my favorites several pastors who I highly respect and who also are Calvinists. Pastor Bob DeWaay for example although not a five point Calvinist is one of the finest examples of a godly Christian that I have found. His verse by verse teaching through the bible and his strong stand against those who compromise the gospel has been very helpful to me. He also teaches with much grace and he is willing to join himself with anyone who is a true Christian whether they are Calvinist or not. That is true Christian unity. I also have been touched by the humility, love and accepted by Dusman. As he said, he is also a Calvinist but not of the kind that separates themselves from the rest of the Christian church. I have seen much grace in his writings and I am proud to call him my brother in Christ. If all Calvinists would be like these two men, I don’t think we would have a problem in the Church such as what the church has suffered from in what has been a very divisive issue in the past.

Wayne and Molly, thank you for standing with us. We believe that this is a spiritual battle that has not surprised God. He is able to save us through this even though we do not know yet how. We are trusting that in the end his will, will be done and God will get the glory as he is the one in control.

Thank you for your prayer Martin!

Thanks Greg, teknomom and Don.

Don,
Yes it is a fact that according to the Canadian government some things are not charitable. Well, it is charitable if you witness to atheists and refute their belief. But it is not allowed if you witness to one who already has a religion. JW’s are out-of-bounds and if the government has its way, they will not be reached for Christ. Jesus has other ideas different than the government.