Cheryl

Charis,

My research and documentation has proven that 1 Cor. 15:36 is one of the most powerful statements of liberty and restoration

Oops that is a typo. It should be 1 Cor. 14:36.

If you want to see the complete picture right away it is available in my DVD “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” In the meantime we are going through the hard passages of scripture on the women’s issue along with other relevant material here on this blog. Since I put out my DVD I have developed a system of refuting the hierarchical position and I plan to put that whole topic into another DVD or a book or both.

As far as putting the quotes into a box, I recommend you contact teknomom at xpndbl (at) dewdropwebs.com. She is really good at that kind of thing. I know how to do it because I have tools that aren’t available to you because I am the owner of this blog. I hope that helps!

And have a wonderful 25th wedding celebration!!

Charis,

Bless your heart, you are a real thinker! I love how you keep working to process this.

You aid: “What if the “she” is Eve/me/woman and the “they” who continue in faith….. are women future to Paul? (which would be faithful women of the past to me- in 2007)”

Let’s think this one through first before we go on to the rest of your post. I am multi-tasking here and should be working on my PowerPoint presentation. If I am off-line for a period of time, that’s why. It is hard not to keep coming back here to see the cool comments 🙂

So….you need to diagram this one out. How is it that you are the “she” but not also in the “they” category? Are you the only one in the “she” category? If there are more than one “she” then isn’t “she” actually “they” because it is now plural? Think this one through very carefully. Take a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle. Now put every single female that could be included in the “she” column on the left hand side. Now put “they” on the right hand side. Now put every body that could be included in the “they” column. When you are finished have a close look at the two columns? Are they similar at all?

Let me know and then we will move on.

By the way, you are so welcome here! I am so blessed to have wonderful Christian brothers and sisters who come here to share wisdom with me. We try hard not to call each other names or say anything that would shame Christ.
🙂
🙂
🙂

Thank you Stephen for that good comment! Yes you are right that was a key part of my argument. When I came to the passage, whatever the interpretation I would come to from the inspired words and the inspired grammar, it could not contradict any other passage of scripture. There is much that contradicts 1 Timothy 2:12 if we consider this as a prohibition against women teaching the bible with authority.

I would very much like to have a civil conversation with Matt Slick. The first time he wrote me after he received my DVDs (a year and a half ago!!) he was very condescending to me and to my work. He then asked me to go on his radio show to discuss the material in my DVDs. At that time I told him that I would not do so because he had a really bad attitude. He assured me that he treats people with respect and even atheists say that. I didn’t believe him and so I stayed away until I heard some shows where he was coming against women and I could no longer keep silent. I am not a Pastor, but I felt great sadness for those precious women who are serving God in this capacity and who are being called sinners for the work they are doing for the Lord. In addition Matt has encouraged men to go into churches and confront the women Pastors. What can I say? I see nothing of this kind of behavior in the scriptures and I believe that it is hurtful to many women – dear sisters in Christ who deserve our support and our love.

I am hoping that Matt will come on to this forum and discuss with us here and that we will treat him with respect as a brother in Christ. We can be strong, but should he show up, let us not treat him with name-calling as he then has something that he can use to condone his behavior.

Charis,

You said:

What if the passage that has been (mis)used by generations to keep women silent is really one of the most powerful statements of liberty and restoration in the Bible? Wouldn’t that be ironic?

Amen! My research and documentation has proven that 1 Cor. 15:36 is one of the most powerful statements of liberty and restoration and completely refutes even today’s hierarchists. I fully agree with you and isn’t this just like our God and Savior?

Charis,

You said:

“What isn’t sitting right with me is “she will be saved if THEY continue in…” So, if we take your understanding of it being a woman teaching doctrinal error, is HER salvation dependant upon THEY?”

Think of this woman as a new convert to the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Her husband is a Christian but one who is letting her teach him that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. He isn’t correcting her or stopping her and he is bringing some of what she teaches into the congregation even though he isn’t convinced of the error. Now Paul tells Timothy to stop the source of the problem – the woman. He says that the Jehovah’s Witness will be saved if the husband leads her and walks with her in learning the truth. The husband is not the problem per se because Paul doesn’t say that “they will be saved” just that “she will be saved”. But although the husband is not part of the problem, he IS part of the solution. He is the one who will bring her into the meetings and make sure that she learns. He can encourage her to listen and he can be there with her. If the husband does nothing and doesn’t help her, the chance of success is slim. She is fully deceived just like Eve was and she needs an incentive to received correct. The husband is the key to that incentive. Therefore, Paul makes sure that her husband is encouraged to act. Also remember that both Paul and Timothy know things about the problem that we don’t. They know who the people are and what exactly the false teaching is. Paul wants Timothy to know that the husband needs to help his wife in order for her to come out of her error.

Thank you so much for telling me when things aren’t sitting right with you. That is so commendable! It is important for you to work things out so that you can understand and see things in scripture. If it doesn’t make sense it is a good thing to push for understanding.

You said:

“Could that “sozo” be about me/woman/Eve being restored to HIS image? because THEY/women have continued in….”

I think we could talk about an application to this verse and that would be fine. I think we can get a good application on this passage that would apply to you and me, however do I think that this is what Paul is talking about? No. The reason is that the “she” and “they” don’t mesh. The statement above it appears that you are saying that “she” is me/you/any woman/Eve and “they” is (now I am not too sure about this one so correct me if I am wrong) women in the past? You said “have continued in” but the tense is something that is to be done at the time that Paul wrote it. That means that both “she” and “they” must do something together. “She” cannot be equal to “they”. Which one do you fit in and which one do I fit in? Are you a “she” or a “they”?

I think the application that you are making is applicable in our sanctification, however a woman’s sanctification is not different than a man’s sanctification. Paul isn’t saying that women are more lost than men or need more help to become like Christ. We as humans are all in the same boat. We are all sinners saved by grace and created for good works. Christ needs to be formed in us, but that happens as we grow and mature in him. Women in general do not need anything special for salvation (that isn’t needed by men), nor do they need to have Christ restore an authority that they lost. The bible has promised that women will be used by God in the last days in a special way in the way that men are used (he has poured out his spirit on all of us). Yes, he has drawn us to himself and it is special. I know exactly what you mean. I too have grown more in the last seven years than I have grown in the time since I became a Christian. But this 1 Timothy 2:11-15 passage isn’t about you and I needing to be stopped from teaching. It is a specific word given to Timothy for a specific situation.

You also said: “Isn’t the female reflection of the image of God Eve? So if I- Charis- am “renewed in knowledge after the image of” my creator doesn’t that look like Eve restored?”

I am not sure exactly what you mean by this. When I seek to be renewed in the image of God, I look to be like Jesus, not a renewed Eve. That has never crossed my mind. Male or female – Jesus is the one who we are to emulate. Eve was the one whom the Messiah would come through, but the one we fix our eyes on is always Jesus.

Heb 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

justa berean,

You have my permission. God bless you in your study!

Cheryl

I should reword this…when I said that the “offer no longer stands” what I mean was that Matt rescinded his offer to have me back on his program. I am perfectly willing to be humiliated again and be called whatever name he wants to call me this time. If we suffer shame for the name of Jesus then we are blessed. I just never thought that the persecution would come from a brother in Christ!
🙁

teknomom,

I posted a much shorter version first just in case they were hesitant to put up anything longer. He already thinks I am long winded!

The podcast blog is here http://carmpodcasting.blogspot.com/2007/09/matt-slick-and-cheryl-part-two-926.html
and no the comment has not been approved and neither has anyone else’s comments. I highly doubt that Matt or Diane will post my comment since they already took of the advertising to my DVDs from the audio on their podcast (said they wouldn’t allow advertising for heresy!) Since I haven’t changed my exegesis since I was on the show, I am assuming that I am still a heretic to them and nothing I post will show up. Wouldn’t that be a blessing if I was wrong?

Lew,

One last thing…do you want to be my coach? I could use all the help I can get!
🙂

Lew,

Great points! I will definitely be better the next time but probably will never be the best debater. I am much more of a deep thinker than I am a fast talker. Plus I have this respect-thing in my head that I have a hard time pushing someone to answer a question that they are avoiding. I don’t want to be disrespectful and I am not sure how successful a person can be in debate unless they push people. I have this fear thing going on too when it comes to anything “live” and God helped me through but it was all him and none of me. If you see my video clips (look for “women in ministry silenced or set free” on youtube.com) you will see me what I perform like after many outtakes. It is far easier to be the research person and to have my nose in the scripture because to have people looking at me and hearing me “live” is quite a source of angst. That isn’t always good for thinking fast on one’s feet. I have all the answers to Matt’s questions perhaps in a way that he would hear them better once off the air.

The reason I agreed to go on the radio show was to defend his charge of sin against women. I was not there to prove that women can be Pastors. It isn’t that I have nothing to say about this, but there are much more important things that must precede the discussion on Pastors. i.e. can a woman teach the bible to men? And is it a sin for a woman to teach the bible or be a Pastor? Once these two key questions are answered, then we can move on.

Regarding talking faster and less words, I offered to do that. Matt asked me to keep my answers down to 1.5 minutes. I agreed but asked him to give me the questions in advance so that I could work on short answers. The offer no longer stands and he has forbidden me to come back on. There is not much I can do although for what it is worth, some of the fear is gone of live radio and having been called a heretic already, what else is there to fear? And if I can trust God with my salvation, I certainly can trust him to help me learn how to “do” radio.

Also thanks to Pastor Wade Burleson for linking to my article and posting on the radio discussion that I had with Matt Slick. Pastor Wade’s blog article is at http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2007/10/free-use-of-word-heretic-is-unhelpful.html

Also if anyone wants to interact with Matt regarding his calling me a heretic his email is carmradio@gmail.com and his phone number for his radio show is 208-377-3790. He takes calls Monday to Thursday between 6 – 7 Mountain time. (That is 5-6 pm Pacific, 7-8 pm Central and 8-9 Eastern time).

If Matt actually had some serious callers dispute his way of dealing with me rather than just his “Carmites” emailing him and phoning him (Carmites is a term Matt has coined for those who are his followers – i.e. followers of CARM) perhaps Matt might consider changing his ways, and maybe even have me back on his program for one last time! Well, not likely but it doesn’t hurt to try.

voiceofsanity,

Clearly you do not know me. I came to this passage ready to accept what God said no matter what. If it meant that I was to stop teaching the bible to men and I had to kick out all the ex-JW’s who were men, then so be it. I probably would have just stopped teaching period, because I could not be prejudiced against people in all good conscience.

As far as 2000 years of scholarship on Matt’s side, let me point out that for 2,000 years this passage has not been understood. If you look in any commentary, they will tell you that the church has not been sure what Paul is getting at in verse 15. No one has made complete sense of this verse before without contradictions.

I came to the passage wanting to know what it meant. I believe that I know and I ask you to show me any contradictions in the passage regarding my understanding of it. Surely if I am wrong then there will be discrepancies. Show me any discrepancies. If you cannot, then why not?

True biblical scholarship is about consistency and honesty. I have been both consistent in my exegesis and honesty in my approach to scripture. To say otherwise is to judge my heart and that would be inconsistent with scripture to judge me in that way.

Charis,

Thank you for your kind words!

It is always good to talk about different interpretations and how they fit in the context. I agree with what you said that women often are guilty of putting their husband over and above Christ. And we all (men and women) can have our minds corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Regarding your thoughts about “a woman” as being all women who can be restored to the garden intimacy with Christ, this view has some problems.

You said:

“She (Eve/woman) will be saved (restored) through bearing the child if they (women) continue in…
How could it mean Christian “salvation” because it is dependant upon “they”?”

The fact is that good hermeneutics requires us to check out the meaning for “saved” to see how Paul has used this elsewhere. Paul never ever used this word in his epistles to mean anything else but biblical salvation. We may be confused about what he is actually saying in verse 15, but we still have to be consistent.

The basic meaning of the verb sozo is to rescue from peril, to protect, keep alive. Sozo involves the preservation of life, either physical or spiritual. There are two clues that Paul meant spiritual salvation. The first clue is that he does not use this word in any other way in his epistles. The second clue is that he ties it in with “the childbearing”. It is a definite noun. What one child is tied in with salvation? The only answer we can give is the Christ child. Now if we make “a woman” to be all women, then we actually have Paul prescribing a different method of salvation for women in general and that isn’t consistent with scripture.

However if we have Paul prescribing a way for a particular deceived woman to become “deprogrammed” from her deception (he commanded Timothy to let her learn) so that she will be in a place to continue on in the true faith, then it makes sense. Think about it this way – what would you say that a deceived person needs to do to be saved? You could tell them that they need to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus, but how does a deceived person do that if they have the wrong Jesus, the wrong gospel and the wrong spirit? (2 Corinthians 11:3,4) The answer is that they need to learn the truth. They need to sit in submission to good godly teaching of correct biblical doctrine so that they can unravel the error. Then and only then will they be in a position to know the truth and be saved.

Maybe it just makes so much sense to me because I have been actively involved in helping Jehovah’s Witnesses come to faith in Christ for 16 years in a support group setting. They needed to have their false doctrine unraveled before they could accept the truth. When their eyes started popping open by what they were seeing in scripture, it was very rewarding to me to teach them about Jesus.

Does this make sense at all? And by the way, I believe that you are here because you asked Jesus to teach you. You are on the right road, but there is more for you to learn. Each word in this passage is important and we need to understand who the “she” is without confusing the “she” with the “they” before we can fully understand this passage.

Lew,

You are welcome! If I can help you in any way, please let me know.

Regarding Hebrews 5:12-14, the Greek is plural masculine but this does not mean that women are not in the group. The masculine grammar is the default position with generic passages. For example:

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Matthew 16:25 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

“Anyone” and “whoever” are singular masculine. Are only men allowed to come after Jesus? Are only men required to take up their cross and following Christ? No, not at all. All of the salvation passages are in the masculine grammatical form, but all of them include both men and women. If we exclude women in Hebrews 5:12-14 regarding the believers who should be teachers, then is it true that the solid food is only for men and only men can be mature? Hardly! These passages are regarding both men and women and women too should be striving to rightly divide the word of truth:

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

If we leave the accurate handling of the word of God to the men alone, then we are leaving women as children relying on the men for maturity instead of working hard to be mature themselves in the truth.

Thank you David for your support. I posted too on his podcast blog asking him and/or his supporters to read “the rest of the story” here. Something tells me that my comments won’t make the grade either. It is so sad. All the years I worked with Jehovah’s Witnesses leading them to the Lord and now they are being told that I am the heretic? The Watchtower tactic was always to keep the reigns tight so that others cannot hear the truth. They say don’t read that book, or watch that TV show or take any religious literature from anyone. Matt has stopped me from saying the rest of the story, told me that I have to be silent (a.k.a “shut up”) and forbidden me from coming back on his radio show. He did originally say that I was allowed back only if I agreed to supply in writing my entire argument so that he had in advance what I was going to say and I had to agree to speak no longer than 1.5 minutes per question. When I agreed to his restrictions, he rescinded the invitation. I guess that it is okay to have on atheists and all kinds of heretics, but he doesn’t want his audience to hear a woman teach her interpretation of the bible even if he gets to try to refute me and he gets to control the mike. I find this just so sad! What will the atheists think about this? Christians calling other Christians heretics.

I agree with Wade that the term “heretic” needs to be reserved for cases where the essentials are being denied or distorted. If we term people heretics just because they don’t fully agree with every point of doctrine, then we all would be heretics.

In case anyone is interested the link to Matt Slick’s podcast blog where they refer to my teaching as heresy is http://carmpodcasting.blogspot.com/2007/09/matt-slick-and-cheryl-part-two-926.html

If anyone else would like to ask Matt to rescind his charge, I think that it might wake him up concerning his attitude.

Thank you Michael for those comments!

Pastor Paul,
What amazing words of confidence you have given me! I thank you from the bottom of my heart!

Don,
Thank you for being persuaded from scripture alone!

Michael,
I am so glad that I was able to help you and that you could recognize truth because your heart was open to see truth.

Dusman,
Thank you for the link and as a video editor myself, let me say I loved the picture!

To all of you,
I am humbled by your gracious words to me. I think I really needed that after being called a heretic!

Blessings,
Cheryl

Paul said: “but it is clear from the verse I gave you above that God did punish Eve and all women after her by having man rule over her.”

You can say that it is clear but my friend, you need to look at the words. They are not a command. It says “he shall rule” not “he must rule over you” or I command him to rule. It is a fact.

It is also not a curse. God does not directly curse the man or the woman. The only thing that he curses is the ground and the animals. If you are going to misread even the basics in Genesis, what will you do with the rest of scripture?

Paul said: “but it is clear from the verse I gave you above that God did punish Eve and all women after her by having man rule over her.”

You can say that it is clear but my friend, you need to look at the words. They are not a command. It says “he shall rule” not “he must rule over you” or I command him to rule. It is a fact.

It is also not a curse. God does not directly curse the man or the woman. The only thing that he curses is the ground and the animals. If you are going to misread even the basics in Genesis, what will you do with the rest of scripture?

Great!! Thanks Wayne!

Thank you Don!

If anyone knows of a place to post my article or a link to this article on other blogs/web sites, etc to help get the message out, it would be greatly appreciated!

Blessings!
Cheryl

Me too! 🙂

Michael,

I am very encouraged that you were blessed by my teaching!

It is interesting that you quote Genesis 3:16 as if God were commanding Adam to rule over Eve. Yet this is a prophecy not a command. And if it was a command, then why did God give it to Eve and not Adam? God doesn’t tell Eve to be ruled over. And He doesn’t tell Adam to rule his wife.

On the contrary most complementarians educated on the Hebrew will admit that the “rule” that is in Genesis 3:16 is a harsh rule and they admit that it is a result of sin. They do not say that God has commanded man to rule their wives in a harsh manner as the word “mashal” suggests.

No my friend, we cannot put words in God’s mouth and he nowhere says that woman is demoted from her original position. And he also did not ask Adam what Eve had done.

Lastly if in heaven we will be equal, then you at least are not as unbiblical as some like CBMW who say that women will be restricted from teaching or having authority as long as we are descended from Adam and Eve (and we will always be humans even in the resurrection so in essence they say the restrictions are eternal).

It is imperative that we do a better job when reading the scripture so as to not misrepresent God or misread God’s commands.

It is interesting that you quote Genesis 3:16 as if God were commanding Adam to rule over Eve. Yet this is a prophecy not a command. And if it was a command, then why did God give it to Eve and not Adam? God doesn’t tell Eve to be ruled over. And He doesn’t tell Adam to rule his wife.

On the contrary most complementarians educated on the Hebrew will admit that the “rule” that is in Genesis 3:16 is a harsh rule and they admit that it is a result of sin. They do not say that God has commanded man to rule their wives in a harsh manner as the word “mashal” suggests.

No my friend, we cannot put words in God’s mouth and he nowhere says that woman is demoted from her original position. And he also did not ask Adam what Eve had done.

Lastly if in heaven we will be equal, then you at least are not as unbiblical as some like CBMW who say that women will be restricted from teaching or having authority as long as we are descended from Adam and Eve (and we will always be humans even in the resurrection so in essence they say the restrictions are eternal).

It is imperative that we do a better job when reading the scripture so as to not misrepresent God or misread God’s commands.

Very cute! I like you guys.
🙂
🙂

justa berean,

Amen! God send us an army of faithful brethren who are not committed to running away when things go rough. Faithfulness and a quiet spirit (not argumentative) are very precious things to our Lord. I trust that many of you out there will get a bug in your bonnet to step out in faith and become one of this army!

Well the guy seems pretty upset at Matt but then reading down a little he is upset about the Trinity too so I would think this guy is a cult member just out to label Matt. For some reason Matt seems to get more hate mail than normal, but then for some reason Matt seems to like hate mail. Go figure.

Thank you teknomom, but I really wanted another try! My patience was tried but God didn’t fail me. Unfortunately his reputation is going to suffer from this. No longer can he say that he will take anyone on about the women’s issue. I hope if he tries to say this again that someone calls him to task and asks “What about Cheryl?” And to be completely honest, I am so green around the edges in a debate format. I am getting better by the minute (thanks guys for all your help, you were amazing!!!) but if I can send Matt running away screaming into the night just because I was kind to him and didn’t call him a heretic, a liberal or a false teacher, then what might a real debater have done to him?

Guys, if anyone of you emailed Matt, I hold my hat out to you! Apparently he got at least a half a dozen emails coming through after he announced he was canning me and they were all asking for me back!! Thank you Lord! I trust in God that God will bring honor in the name of Jesus from all of this and that people will see the truth despite the smoke screen.