Dr. McGregor Wright,
I ordered the book.  Should be an interesting read, I am sure.

Watcher,
I knew exactly what you meant.  Thanks for sharing your experience!  I am sure that would have hit me hard too had I been in your place and seen the subordination of the Son in a Christian book store.  I was oblivious to this teaching for the whole 16 years that I lead a support group to help JW’s come out of their own indoctrination.  Had I known that this stuff was also in the church, I would have been very discouraged.  JW’s come out of the Watchtower confused as it is.  I have found some men who came out of the JW’s are hierarchists merely because this view is the closest to the JW thinking about Jesus so the easiest to accept for them.  I am expecting that the DVD set we are producing will set a lot of these men free and clear up the years of confusion.

Cindy,
Lots of things to think about, for sure!
Tiro3,
I am privileged to have lots of subscriptions because I am a video editor. The one I like best that I use on this blog is clipart.com  It is lots of fun for me to express myself through graphics.

I read somewhere that it is impossible to convince a person whose livelihood depends on them holding the opposing view. Someone who is a member of CBMW and who has put into print the subordination of Christ will not be convinced no matter how much evidence one has.

But we definitely could provide some lightning!

Thanks, Dr. McGregor Wright for that great information! We have been thinking about a further DVD set that will deal with historical heresies on the Trinity and the early church fathers & creeds etc. This one we have stayed with scripture alone. In my research I noticed that hierarchical teachers complained that in defending the Trinity Kevin Giles appealed to the creeds and early church fathers and they say that these fathers agree with them and not Kevin Giles. They are also saying that they are winning the argument because only they are appealing to scripture. Kevin Giles of course has a second book out called Jesus and the Father so he has done a well-rounded view of the Trinity from scripture. Yet there are conjectures by hierarchists and challenges that need to be answered. We believe that we have answered these challenges in a very upfront way with scripture alone. There is of course more to be said that wouldn’t fit on the DVDs.

Thanks for the information and I will have a look as will, I am sure, many others!

By the way Lin, nice picture!

Lin,

Greg Koukl’s tactics are available here.

It is called Tactics in Defending the faith.  It is a great series and I have learned a lot from Greg.

Thank you Cindy!  I accept that prayer on my behalf.

Lin,
You are absolutely correct in that these men have credibility and influence and this is used to allow them to teach things about Christ that is against our historic faith. Others who do not want the “scholar” to lose that credibility will defend them vigorously. You are also very right in saying that the teachings are themselves convoluted. The problem is that when one uncovers the “spin” that they have put on the doctrine of Christ, they refuse to communicate further with you. That is the position that I am in right now. Greg Koukl a well-known apologist has developed a technique for getting at the “bottom line” truth of an issue and it is called “taking the roof off” the argument. It is a very effective technique used to show the person where there is a faulty foundation of the person’s logic.

I “took the roof off” of Bruce Ware’s argument on the eternal subordination of Christ. I did it in a very gentle and respectful way but he would not allow his teaching to be challenged. He told me that he would no longer answer my emails and he apparently is not interested in receiving a free review copy of our Trinity DVD either. From my interactions with him, it appears to me that he has so bought into a mindset that gives him an edge over women because he is the “direct” image of God while women are only an “indirect” image of God, that he will not allow his view of the eternal subordination of Christ to be tested and challenged. I suspect that it would result in his own superiority being challenged and that is unacceptable to him. I was willing to continue to work through these issues and I was completely open for him to challenge me back but he was unwilling to continue our communication. That is his prerogative, but it seems to me that it isn’t the way of a real truth lover. After all he was aware that we are producing a DVD set on the Trinity and using his teaching as the example of error and soundly refuting him. I would think that he would have been more open to show me the error of my way instead of saying “God have mercy on your soul” and cutting off communication.

Dusman,
Thank you for your encouragement!  We too want the new DVDs to be widely distributed.  We feel that if today’s Pastors are not going to protect the sheep, then God will bypass the pastors and protect the sheep through our hard work.  It certainly is time that the nonsense about the eternal subordination of Christ is exposed and it is done in a format that is not so high above the “normal” individual that they would not benefit from it.  Our intent is to be scholarly yet to bring it down to the barn floor where the sheep can feed from it.  Our intention is also to distribute the DVDs on Amazon.com, our web sites and through word of mouth by people interested in this project and who are willing to pass it on to other blogs, etc.  This is not a secondary issue of faith.  It is a precious foundational truth that must be defended.

Watcher,
The gender hierarchalist would certainly get some help from cult literature in how to take the time of Jesus’ humility as a man and turn it into his eternal state.  Such a shame, though, don’t you think?
Several years back I sat in a lecture on the Trinity by Bruce Ware and I was sitting with two former Jehovah’s Witnesses who had come to Christ.  I told them that Ware lowers the Deity of Christ in much the same way as they were taught to believe, but I don’t think they believed me until they heard it for themselves.  Their mouths dropped open in shock and they told me that this is what they used to believe as Jehovah’s Witnesses.  To hear an evangelical Christian spout the same doctrine was truly shocking to them.

Another very helpful web page is http://www.DoesGodReallyPreferMen.com where you can request a great ebook called “Does God really prefer Men?”  This ebook is especially helpful in establishing the base of an egalitarian marriage.  I also found her exegesis on some of the hard passages of scriptures to be very akin to my own finding in scripture.  Leslie Johnson writes that this is because we have the same Dad, the same Savior and we are filled with the same Holy Spirit.  I heartily agree! For those of you who are especially looking for resources on marriage, make sure to request this free e-book from Gary and Leslie Johnson.

Another great site is God’s Word to Women http://www.godswordtowomen.org/main.htm Lots of great resources for checking out egalitarianism and there are free books on line too.

Don,
Thanks for the info to add to our list!

Truthseeker,
You are welcome!

Truthseeker,
What a great idea. I think I will start a post to address this things.

tiro3,
What great friends you have! I always wanted friends that I could talk theology with. The “regular” men didn’t know what to do with a woman who loved theology and the women’s clubs just bored me to tears. I guess I am a square peg trying to fit in a lot of round holes. But…tah dah…here we have this blog and I get to share my thoughts with all you folk and you guys actually listen! What more could I ask for?

Sandy,
I will doing this post this coming week, Lord willing. I just finished the major edit of my new DVD and I am brain fried. It is going into the review stage right now so although I have lots of work to do, and I may want to kick around and actually take a day off this week (!) I do want to get back into posting on my own blog. I have been thinking things through in my head late at night and there are a lot of things I would like to say on the blog.

Lin,
Thank you so much for your precious words of encourage and your prayers! I do agree with you that the teaching on the Trinity needs to go from a PhD level to the level that we all can understand what God has revealed. God is certainly greater than we can ever know, but there are things that he has revealed that we need to talk about and learn about. The teaching that removes our intimate relationship with Jesus just makes my blood run cold. I am mystified at how the shepherds of the flock could let this come into the church without saying something.

Thanks also for letting us know about Pastor Paul Burleson’s writing. I have appreciated this pastor for a long time and his writings have been with such humility that he has inspired me. I will have a look at what he has written that you linked to and I would recommend others to read his writing as well. Pastor Paul has a lot of years on me and his wisdom shows it.

Truthseeker,
I agree with Lin that what we have in this day and age are biblical helps and resources at our fingertips that only the elite scholars used years ago. Many of these resources are free on the internet.

Now regarding 1 Peter 3:1 – Peter tells wives to be submissive to their husbands in order to win them for the Lord if any of them are not believers. In verse 2 Peter defines what he means by submissive. A submissive attitude is one that shows a chaste and respectful behavior. Now while the word for respect can be interpreted as “fear” most translations either render it as “respect” for the husband – see the Amplified bible: “When they observe the pure and modest way in which you conduct yourselves, together with your reverence [for your husband; you are to feel for him all that reverence includes: to respect, defer to, revere him–to honor, esteem, appreciate, prize, and, in the human sense, to adore him, that is, to admire, praise, be devoted to, deeply love, and enjoy your husband]. ” Or else they attribute the fear as towards God himself. i.e. (The bible in basic english) “When they see your holy behaviour in the fear of God.” or (MKJV) “having witnessed your chaste behavior in the fear of God.” I have no problem seeing it either way. We are to respect our husbands treating them as special, prize them, admire, adore and enjoy them. We are also to treat them with respect because of our fear (reverence) for God. 1 Peter 3:15 talks about our actions with a healthy reverence (fear) for God.

1 Peter 3:15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason of the hope in you, with meekness and fear;

While it is our responsibility to give our husbands the respect that they seem to need to flourish and to be their best, their responsibility is to love us unconditionally (as Christ loves the church) and by loving us this way they are supplying our emotional need.

I know of no marriage advice anywhere whether from complementarian or egalitarian sources that advises women to “fear” their husband. It makes much more sense that the marriage bond is not to be of fear but of deep respect and careful attention to the things that meet his needs. It is easy to do such things if he is diligent to follow the biblical pattern of meeting our needs first. The man who truly loves his wife unconditionally will have a respectful “fan” on his side who will encourage him and treat him like no one else means more to her than her own spouse. I will talk more in a future post about what happens when the man overrules his wife’s will instead of loving her like Jesus loves the church.

Truthseeker,
Thank you for your kind words!

Paula,
You gave me a well-needed laugh today. I mean, I laughed right out loud when you described my blog as a tea party and yours as a bar & grill. You are a feisty one for sure. The body of Christ needs all kinds and we sharpen each other. I am still smiling at the tea (for sure with cookies too for those of you who love to dip your cookies into tea) party! Tee hee!!! 😉 I needed that picture in my head as I am fighting the hard fight of faith today with sword in hand. Outside I am a warrior, but inside I am a tea-party kind-of-gal!

Jael,
Thank you for your encouragement and your prayers!

Prayerful,
Your words were comfort to me and brought tears to my eyes. It is so good to know that there are others out there who are willing to hold me up in prayer as I struggle through some of the toughest days under a black cloud fighting back against aberrations within the Christian church itself.

Those who have also taken the time to email me privately, I would also like to publicly acknowledge and say thank you. With the foundations around us falling down because of the persecution in ministry that we have experienced from the Canadian government, it has been especially tough to keep our concentration on the task at hand. Yet the task at hand is hearing and answering the attacks on the person and work of Jesus which has been so very difficult to document without feeling personally offended and attacked. On top of that the slow down in the housing market has stopped our house from being sold for almost one year now so this ties our hands financially. Any one of these things taken alone would be hard to bare, but all together it is overwhelming. Yet our eyes are fixed on Jesus expecting his strength to carry us through these very difficult times. When the work is finally done, it will not be a testament to our weakness but to the Lord’s strength in the midst of a storm. Thank you again for standing with us in prayer. It is VERY MUCH appreciated!

54 Lin,

Regarding 1 Timothy 3:12, the quote you gave from the person who said this could not be about polygamy is not following what has been an historical interpretation. Polygamy was an acceptable thing in that culture and while the unmarried were allowed to be Apostles and leaders in the church, polygamists were not allowed to be examples to the congregation. Paul himself was unmarried and it would seem out of place for him to encourage others to remain unmarried as he was, so that they could give more of their time to Christian work and then turn around and deny those who followed his advice from being leaders in the church. That would be a contradiction in Paul’s practice with a prohibition on single men’s service.

Now regarding the masculine language of 1 Timothy 3, the “default” language is masculine even when it includes males and females. For example every one of the salvation passages is in the singular masculine. For example:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

The “whoever” and the “anyone” is in the singular masculine. Are only males allowed to take up their cross and follow Jesus? Are only males who lose their life for Jesus told they will find their lives? No, this passage along with all of the salvation passages are in the masculine because that is the default way of expressing men and women. We cannot take away women from having leadership places in the congregation because of the masculine language of 1 Timothy 3 any more than we can take away women’s ability to follow Jesus and receive salvation because these passages are also in the masculine grammar.

If Paul wanted us to know that women were forbidden from having any leadership places in the congregation he would have told us this directly. He also would have explained why God went outside this prohibition by using women in leadership positions in the Old Testament. Paul does not have to explain away women leaders in the Old Testament because his language is not one of direct prohibition. It is also never listed as a “sin” for a woman to give of herself to shepherd the flock. Rather Paul says that if “anyone” (not the male term “aner”) desires to be an overseer that person desires a good thing. What did Paul recommend for women who desired to be an overseer? Should they be put into jail? Should they be kicked out of the congregation? Should they be shunned? Paul gives no such punishment for women. There is no penalty given for the “crime” of a woman desiring to use her God-given gifts for the benefit of the entire body of Christ. Why do we punish godly women who desire to use their gifts to benefit their dear brothers in Christ? What biblical precedent do we have to mete out this judgment? There is nothing in scripture that lists these women as practicing sin nor does scripture tell us how to punish them. I respectfully suggest that those who hold to patriarchy have gone above and beyond the clear teaching of scripture by holding back and punishing women when scripture never tells us to do this. There is not even one example in either the OT or the NT that gives an example of a woman punished by God or by the congregation for using her God-given gifts in public.

Truthseeker,
As you already can observe for yourself “patriarchy” teaching hurts women whose desire it is to serve the Lord Jesus without being forced to be prejudiced to individuals who are not allowed to receive their gifts merely because of their gender.

I have been thinking a lot about will and man’s claim that the husband is to take authority over his wife and overrule his wife’s will whenever there is a difference in opinion on a decision in the marriage. I think I will do a post shortly on this issue. It has been a difficult time for me as I am nearing the end of my time of researching and writing on my DVD on the Trinity. My thoughts and emotions have been very focused on this one issue and hopefully I will get a chance to take a break before the end of April.

Tiro3,
Thanks for asking! I am done my writing and working at putting it into script form. My time line is the end of this month to get that job done. I really have been overwhelmed and had to step back from almost everything else in my life. It has also been an extremely emotional experience for me as I have documented the hierarchical belief that teaches that Jesus possesses less authority than the Father in the Trinity. The sound bytes that I have been collecting have really done a number on me as hearing my Lord Jesus downgraded to an eternally submissive being who does not answer prayer, who does not use ever use his own will in his actions and who must be commanded to obey the Father from eternity past to eternity future has been extremely hard for me to bear. For those who get the finished DVD on the Trinity and hear the amazing audio clips, will only get a glimpse at what emotional abuse I have had to endure listening to our Savior downgraded and dishonored. Honestly at times this past week I didn’t know how I could go on. It has been devastating to me. But God is granting me grace day by day to keep at it so that this aberration will be exposed. If I am missing in action until the end of April this is why.

If any of you reading this could also remember me in prayer, I would be very grateful. This is been as devastating to me personally as much if not more so than my research project on women in ministry. The words spoken against the Lord Jesus have cut me deep to the very foundation of my soul. It has made me hurt and angry and depressed. I pray that the Lord himself will help me to make it past this very painful time so that I can get the message out. Jesus needs to be honored and lifted high because this is how we honor the Father. Those who do not give equal honor to Jesus are not giving full honor to the Father. There is great saddness in my heart over this matter.

Liz,
I think that Mark’s way of teaching is not making jokes, but saying things in a funny way that causes people to learn even when they don’t realize it. If someone is offended through laughter I would imagine they wouldn’t attend. After all his sessions are called “Laugh your way to a better marriage”. I enjoy humor and I loved the DVDs and got a lot of good out of them. For others who learn differently I am sure there are good teaching sessions out there who may not use any humor at all. Neither way is better than the other.

37 Michael,

That is wonderful if your church does not discriminate against women Sunday School teachers! The hard-line position, though, is that women are not allowed to teach the bible in their home or in the church (including as a Sunday School teacher) if they are in the position to be teaching the authoritative word of God to men. If they merely facilitate discussion, then they are allowed to do this.

My question has always been why God would discriminate against men in this way? Why would God hold back some of his gifts from the benefit of men yet allow women to benefit from all of the gifts of God? There was no holding back of the gifts of God from men in the OT, so why should there be in the NT? These questions must be asked and answered so that we can consider the hard passages of scripture on the women’s issue in context instead of taking them out of their context as “proof texts”.

Lin,
Hey thanks for posting that link! http://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2008/03/incredulous.html It was very encouraging to me and I sure appreciate you taking the time to pass it on to me, especially this week when I really needed encouragement. Pastor Paul has been a great encouragement to me. I also appreciate his son Wade a whole lot. The wonderful words that Pastor Paul gave me sure helped a lot to counteract all the attacks I have been fielding recently!

I will be commenting on the thought-provoking comments on this post hopefully by tomorrow. I have been so engrossed in my work on the Trinity DVD it has been hard to get me away from the script. I will post again later when I can take a break.

Cindy,
I sent you an email with Stan Gundry’s contact info.

For those looking for what is happening on CARM and with Diane Sellner make sure to read the comments on the last post at http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/03/26/dr-randall-buth-refutes-accusation-against-me-on-carm/ especially comment #16