Derek Vester

Cheryl, I didn’t realize you had written this yet and so I am sorry for the delay in responding. My first question would be does the word used here ever describe a co-operative act? Thanks for writing this, I really appreciate you doing this.

Ok, this does confuse me because I have never (even in your article) seen this word used to mean teaching. Attracting, drawing, hauling, dragging,…just never heard teaching. Perhaps you could help me with this. Thanks Cheryl and I hope you continue to feel better. 🙂

Cheryl, I know you are going to hit on a lot of this in the next article (which I am anxious to read) but focusing just on the word for draw it does seem strange to read it as teaching. Respectively, it seems as if you are reading into it a bit. I mean no disrespect saying that as you have shown yourself to try hard not to do that. Just what it looks like from my viewpoint. Thanks.

As usual, well written paper Cheryl. I am going to try and focus on smaller questions as opposed to giving all the things I might disagree with or need further clarification on. My first question is do you think it is possible that David is saying he will go to him because he too will die. As a note, I personally think babies go to heaven, but when asked I say, “I don’t know, there is not enough clear evidence to go on but as is everything it is in the hands of the only One it should be in.”

To not exist would be better than Hell, no?

I guess I can answer many of the issues about what I believe as a Calvinist (though I don’t like calling myself that but I won’t fight it either). I believe that everyone including Judas willingly sins and disobeys God. I also believe God is in Sovereign control of everything and does not react or is not surprised by anything as He has ordained everything to work out for good. God means evil for good sometimes (Joseph, Judas, etc..). Joseph’s brother sinned willingly and God did not simply go, “well I guess I can use that and I am glad it worked out,” He ordained it. I believe Judas was going to do what he was destined to do and that he was still 100% responsible for it. The passive thing I was talking about is the idea that when God hardened Pharaohs heart he simply removed the common grace He extends to all of us, whether we serve him or not. All good is of God and if God removes himself he removes His goodness as well. This would help with the double predestination thing as well. Reprobation says that God passes over those He has not chosen, He does not actively damn them for Hell as they have already done that by willfully sinning. I can’t stand the smugness of many Calvinist and so I understand your distaste for it. I want to witness Jesus to people. That is my ultimate goal. I don’t know who is elect and so “I endure all things for the sake of the elect.” I just hope you all don’t judge all “Calvinist” by the bad ones as we know the squeaky wheel gets the grease. We don’t judge all Baptists by the Westboro do we? I really appreciate the honesty of both of you. There were a lot of comments and if I didn’t adequately answer something then let me know. 🙂

Cheryl, 1. Pretty much. I think we are still deceived in a sense but we absolutely know we are doing wrong. 2. Don’t like the chess player analogy. I don’t pretend to know how this works but I think our choices are ours and that God doesn’t just use them or know an infinite number of things we might do but that He is actually Sovereign over them (our choices). Don’t know how this works out, I admit. 3. I agree w/most but I don’t think God allows or prevents necessarily, I think He simply does. His decreed will cannot be thwarted. His desired will can obviously or everyone would go to heaven. 4. I don’t see anything here I disagree with. 5. Kind of. Anything good we do is from God as no one does good and our “good” works are filthy rags. So yes, hardening in my opinion is God removing more of His goodness. If He does remove Himself we would actually become “totally depraved”. Right now I think we are “radically depraved” and not as depraved as much as we possibly could be. 6. Not really. I know we all sin. I know the penalty for sin is death. I know apart from coming to God we will go to hell. I know we are dead in our trespasses and cannot come to God as no one seeks God. I know God chose us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless (those chosen obviously). I know everyone not chosen will go to hell because they willfully sin against their creator. Their throats are open graves. I know God is and does what He wills. I know God’s decreed will cannot be thwarted. That is it. I don’t know everything obviously and I am always willing to change my view if corrected from Scripture. Also, I am not chained to Calvinism. I am a Christian who agrees with the Calvinistic doctrines I have been exposed to thus far. I listen to many different types of people and I especially do not just read from Calvinist. I know you don’t think all Calvinist do that stuff but I did want to clarify. I hope this helps. I am sorry. I just don’t have all of my thoughts worked out completely on this side of heaven and I suspect God will continue to teach me. 🙂

Cheryl, Do you think that the sacrifice of Jesus benefits Judas eternally? Thanks and I enjoyed your paper.

I think it would be better for anyone to have not been born than to go to hell for all eternity. Not sure why this is a Calvinist question though. Maybe you could help me with that.

I don’t think Jesus was saying that the chance existed that Judas would have died before he was born and ruined the prophecy. I believe He was simply pointing out that his eternal destiny is horrible. God surely would not let something He wants to take place be ruined by anything. I don’t think God actively made Judas betray Jesus by the way. I think it was like Joseph’s brothers. Judas is fully responsible for his actions yet God meant it for His purposes. What do you think?

Some Calvinist may say something like that but I do not believe in double predestination. I also don’t talk of things that Scripture doesn’t speak to (to the best of my ability). Once Jesus said it we more fully understood who the prophecy spoke of. Do you think it could have been one of His other disciples? Someone else entirely? Do you think it could have been prevented from happening?

I don’t know for sure what happens to babies or those that lack mental and moral capacity. I can only speak to what Scripture says. I hope and personally believe they will be but have nothing to stand on. I don’t believe in fatalism either. I believe in paradoxes and mysteries like the trinity, incarnation, etc.. I don’t believe in double predestination and I believe in unconditional election and limited atonement (that only those saved will make use of Jesus blood shed on the cross). I believe in reprobation and have no issue with a God that chooses for Himself by Himself. I mean no disrespect at all and thank you both for your dialogue. Good discussion.

Yes, this view really seems to hurt a Sovereign view of God’s providence. I mean no disrespect by saying that, I know you would not intentionally do that and it is only my opinion. By this view, what if Jesus, John the Baptist, or anyone else prophesied died in the womb. This view seems to indicate that God’s will in providence can be thwarted. You are correct that Satan must ask permission of God to do his evil desires and so I can’t imagine death must ask the same thing of our Sovereign God. Also, before you discuss the baby thing I just want to say that I don’t know if all babies go to heaven or just some or none. I think they all do based on some Scripture but I wouldn’t say it definitively based on the lack of solid clear Scripture. Look forward to what you have to say (both of you). Thank you very much.

I have trouble thinking that God just waited to see whom would become the one he prophesied about. Also, just because Satan wanted to sift them all doesn’t have anything to do with God knowing who the betrayer would be, right? God would not be considered a false prophet had it not been Judas but it was and so I have to think God not only knew who it would be but passively made it so. I believe that when God hardens he simply removes his common goodness from someone (like the Pharaoh and Egypt). I do think Judas was Sovereignly chosen as the betrayer before he was born as the Pharaoh was raised up for the purpose of destruction. God is not marred by their sins but their volunteer sins work perfectly in God’s Sovereign plan.

I think Jesus was elect (Luke 23:35; 1 Peter 2:6) Certain angels as well (1 Timothy 5:21) the nation of Israel and the church also (1 Peter 2:9; 2 John 1). Same word (eklektos) used in these verses. What do you think?

Is it possible that this is a old verses new Covenant thing and not a Calvinism verse Arminianism thing? Not sure if he was elect but I think God chooses for Himself to the praise of His own glorious grace in the old and new Covenants alike. Let me know what you think. Love the paper. Well written and researched.

I absolutely agree with you about sticking to the word and not getting bogged down in tradition. Great point. Even if everything you say is true about John…I am missing the connection as to why this discredits the doctrine of unconditional election? Perhaps you could connect those dots for me. I will have to research what you have said in regards to Johns salvation and I look forward to doing so. Thanks.

With as much respect as I can portray without you hearing my tone and seeing my body language I would say it sounds as if one of us is wrong on what we think unconditional election looks like. I believe unconditional election is God choosing us before creation, having nothing to do with any good seen in us but only for his own sovereign purpose and plan. Faith is the means by which (Greek dia) we are saved. If we don’t have faith we are not elect. We don’t know who are elect and we are told by Paul to make our election sure and to examine ourself. If John was elect he would have had faith in Jesus as Abraham did. I believe faith is a condition but that all elected will come to faith. I don’t know why, if God didn’t elect John, he wasn’t elected being the greatest born of a woman. I pray I am not coming across as rude or condescending at all as that would not be my intentions. I am not foolish enough to believe that I might not be wrong. 🙂 Thank you.

I am glad I didn’t come across as rude as I would never intentionally do that to a Christian. In my anger I might, but haven’t we all. 🙂 I agree with the five points of Calvinism, however, I am a Christian first, and foremost. If there are some Calvanist out there that presume to know that John the Baptist was elect, even if it were Calvin himself (as he is only a man and I do not in any way worship him) that would be their position. I am sure I could point out some non-Calvinist that have believed things you would find absurd. I don’t know very many Calvinist, but I love the doctrine. I find it consistant and so far in my studies Scripturally reliable. I really don’t think it is possible to know if someone is elect. I witness to everyone as if they were elect. I do believe that our Sovereign God will see to it that all who are elect (as they are elected by Him) come to Him in this life. Paul didn’t die in his “previous way” so it is not within my power to speculate. If someone doesn’t profess a saving faith in Jesus alone in this life, I do not believe they were elected by God. Of all the five points of Calvinism, I find this one the most appealing and Scripturally accurate (not that I don’t find the other ones that way) because it defines just how marvelous grace really is. I really did nothing. It was all God. As for John, I really don’t know if he was elected I just don’t know. Thank you again for being patient with me as I am just a pilgrim on my way home. See you there. I am really enjoying your blog by the way. Thank you for all the dialogue as there are not a lot of people in my life that find talking about Scripture and doctrine very exciting. 🙂

Yes, but we only know that now. If someone is elect then God will see to it that they make it through the Saul period of their life. If someone dies without professing faith in Jesus then they are not elect. Surely you believe God is Sovereign enough to preserve someone if He wishes? Elect (Eklektos) simply mean picked out or chosen for one’s self much like chosen (eklegomai). I just believe that God chooses before we are born (Ephesians 1:4) who is elect. I don’t pride myself in this. I don’t know why He would elect me (or anyone for that matter). I am humbled by the fact that He chose me (or anyone) and taught true grace in my humility. By the way, I too, would rather talk about nothing other than theology. I love talking with honest God-fearing brothers and sisters (and non-believers for that matter) about God and all things related. I will discuss these things with you until you get tired of me. I pray I don’t frustrate you. I am prideful and stubborn but I desperately want to be more like Jesus. If my faults leak out I hope you call me on it. 🙂