Justa Berean
Active 2007–2008
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Yes, exactly. And since the Trinity is One and always in perfect accord, then when they planned the redemption of humanity they were also in perfect accord. Thus the Word of God (John 1:1) who was in the beginning was in agreement to becoming the Messiah at the appointed time. And as the God-Man, being clothed in human flesh (Phil. 2:5-8) in the form of a man also needed to be in accord with God in all things. Since human flesh is not God, this human flesh needed to be submitted during the life of the Messiah.
I’ve often wondered about after the resurrection when Christ’s human flesh was transformed into whatever it is now. Perhaps, we will be like Him when we are raised also.
To me even talking about the mystery of it all stretches the bounds of thinking.
and of course we then have to add Christ as Messiah, the God-Man into the equation.
“If the Father has a will and the Son’s will is different from the Father’s in that the Father must take authority over the Son, then there can be no Son’s will at all. A will that is never expressed is not a will at all.”
Yes, good point. That is the picture that Burk is painting, right? My thought is that if anyone has to give up his will to another, then he has lost his will. But at one time he did have one.
It is my understanding that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are always of One Will. None has to give it up to another, none requires the other submit to His Will instead of their own. Only One Will, means there cannot be one who has the authority and one who submits to that authority. There is nothing to submit to if the Trinity has only One Will.
When hierarchalists try to add authority and submission into the Trinity they divide the substance of the Trinity and they seek to add in human thinking. It is difficult for humans to conceive of the actuality of three who are in perfect Oneness. We can only conceive in human experience of one who takes authority over others in order to maintain one will. That is grossly different to the Oneness of the Trinity.
Anyway, I’ll try to find some time to see what Giles has to say on this subject also.
One of the many problems with the concept of eternal subordination in the Trinity is that it presents more than One Will. As we can see in the Athenasian Creed that is one of the errors the creed was written to correct. Here are some excerpts to consider.
“And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the Substance.”
“So likewise the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords: but one Lord.”
“And in this Trinity none is afore, or after another: none is greater, or less than another.”
Don Johnson has been doing something on the CARM board that I find very impressive. such as this quote…..
“If you want to be set free, I can help and will explain more”
I think it is a very wise thing to answer in a similar manner as this and then offer to help. Just saying “I can help” can be a humble submissive response that reeks of inner strength.
We should be willing to learn from each other of the strengths we have.
It’s rather like what Don says, they make doctrine and decisions to benefit themselves. The more they exercise that attitude, the more obvious it will be to observers who CAN see, where patriarchy leads. At it’s core, I believe patriarchy is an ugly belief system. Sorry to say that publicly.
Personally, I’m not sure that the moderator Diane S. is really a woman with that name. It seems more like a pseudo-name for someone like Matt. “Her” vocabulary and attitude seem too rough for a woman. 🙂
I caught what the other poster was banned for. He said in response to the other’s question: “if the CARM moderators do not like the websites you link to, even if they are Christian, they can call them liberal propaganda or anything else they want and delete them. It’s an autocratic government.”
They are indeed an autocratic government. It’s written in their rules that you cannot question a moderators decision or even comment about it. Zero accountability. It’s a terrible witness for Christ. And terribly revealing of what patriarchy is about.
I’m surprised yet not surprised to see the CARM moderator (whoever she really is) take such a hardlined attitude toward Cheryl. The moderator said she violated a rule of advertising. It’s a stretch to call it that but not impossible. Anytime anyone told about something that was going to happen, that could be viewed as advertising.
But I do understand that because they have chosen to view the WIM ministry as against their personal doctrines, and to call anyone not agreeing with patriarchy as sinful, witches, against God, that it is reasonable that they would view this extremely negatively.
This is the mods note on it:
“For what it is worth, the Boise Radio station is not CARM, it is a business, they do permit false teachers on the station even the Roman Catholic apologists that are not Christians. Listeners to the station are very aware that the words of those buying radio time are not necessarily approved by true orthodox Evangelical Christians.”
That is great news. I’ll want to hear it. Will there be places to post comments after the airing?
I’m appalled. Burks views are almost anti Christ. Amazing.
Great testimony. Thanks for sharing this with us Cheryl. Stan and Pat are great warriors for the Kingdom of God.
Lin wrote: Or about the argument that history proves that all denominations that have ordained women or had women in leadership became liberal in doctrine which started their downfall?
Hey it could have been to much spicy food that made them all crazy. We should check the locations of all those churches that became liberal enough to notice they were liberal. 🙂
This is a very good word and encouragement Cheryl. As usual. I’ll
comment later.
At the moment, I’m trying to find an answer to the following question.
Sorry this isn’t on topic.
There is a circulating claim of historical evidence of Iounias the bishop
outside of Jerusalem during the apostolic era. Does anyone know of this?
Is this information on a website, and in any books documenting it? I’d
like to see what info there is on it.
While so many scholars have claimed no evidence of any male having the
name of Iounias… not one bit of evidence … where and when did this
info turn up? Is this person real. And if so, what evidence is there that
it is a man. Just because he/she was a Bishop that mean it was a man, is
circular reasoning (the same circular reasoning regarding Iounia) . Fact
is that there have been female elders in history.
Thus we have no indication anywhere that Iounia(s) is a male name. Yet, we
have a Iounia(s) Bishop that supposedly is male because of the position of
Bishop.
If anyone has any documented info they can point me to I would be most
grateful
JIP: Scripture makes clear that God, having made the two sexes different, wants them to remain different. To turn the presbyterate, which in the New Testament is defined clearly as a man’s job, into a unisex role is a departure from that divine wisdom. I believe in women’s giftedness and ministry, but their ministry should be separately structured.
The fact that God made male and female different has nothing whatsoever to do serving God and His people in leadership ministries. Physical differences do not hinder God’s people from being used of the Holy Spirit to speak truth, give wise direction, or teach Biblical truths.
I have an idea, but just to be certain, what Scriptures do you think make the case for the bishops and elders being male only?
Cheryl, I would like to hear about how that is going also. You may use either of my email addy’s.
Hope your family is having a wonderful day of Thanksgiving.
Joanna. that is a great idea if you have the energy for finding a translator for the French Bible. I’ve thought of it. But I live in the boondocks so to speak.
You’ve a good point about missing logic. 🙂
Don, are you referring to Jesus and the Father by Kevin Giles?
Well said, Cheryl. I was just mentioning this issue to someone. It was a great surprise to see you discussing it. And you outlined and explained it very well.
Michael you made some good points also. Just like we are all the bride of Christ, we are all warriars, we are a priesthood, etc. we are also all “sons”. Each of those and other points carries certain privileges and gifts from our Lord.
That is interesting what Bruce Ware is advocating. Certainly if one believes that God the Father tells the Son what to do (hierarchy) then the direct route would be to pray to the Father only. Why bother with the Son or the Holy Spirit. What they don’t seem to “get” is that they just brought inequality into the Trinity.
Yes, I think it does have it’s roots in cults. Have you read Giles books: The Trinity and Subordinationism, and Jesus and The Father? Excellent works on this subject.
Eternal subordination of the Son, also opens up not just lifelong subordination of women to men, but subordination in eternity. This reasoning BTW is already found with the Mormons who contend that men are in authority over women throughout eternity.
Let me clarify….
Don wrote: ” There are MANY atheists and agnostics who AGREE with the comps, as they know that many people will then side with them.”
Do you mean the athiests and agnostics agree with gender hierarchy? or? I don’t talk much with athiests. 🙂
I didn’t get that Don. Could you please rephrase it. Thanks.
I’ve noticed that they don’t really have many arguments to support the verses they misuse. After they use them up, adamant gender hierarchalists then start resorting to name calling, defamation of character, etc. Or constant repetition. Get’s tiring.
But I keep seeing more ways that God’s Word weaves together the truth throught the whole of Scripture.
Good stuff Cheryl.
Now I’ve a research question I hope someone can find some material for. On CARM someone said this:
“The public witness of Epiphanius is that Junian became bishop of Apameia. There is no known dissent by those of Apameia that Junian did not become bishop nor a proclamation or historical record from those of Apameia or elsewhere that their bishop was a woman.”
He’s been answered by Eldeon Epp’s quote from his book “Junia, the first Woman Apostle”. However, I didn’t recollect reading the bit about Junia being a bishop. Does anyone have any info on that?
Some of the things that need clarified about Junia:
1. There is no name found anywhere of any Junian/Junias. The name Junia however, is well attested.
2. The 12 apostles were chosen in a particular way because there job was to lay the foundation of the church. Paul is the only exception to that, yet he was still called personally in a miraculous way. All other apostles were still called personally by Christ because that is the way God calls anyone to any ministry. And there were indeed other apostles beside the 12 and Paul.
3. The Greek word for “among” indicates among the apostles. The attempt to say the apostles thought Andronicus and Junia were swell, is ridiculous and doesn’t fit with the introductions. Paul is introducing people and giving recognition of their ministries.
Very well said Teknomom. I like it.
Charis #53
You wrote: “I’m really not sure that God wants women to be head pastors over men. Look at the kind of abuse they take??GOD cares about us and want to PROTECT us from abusive people!!!”
Women take abuse because of wickedness in the world. Satan has always had it in for women and he always will. Nevertheless when God calls someone, if they will lean heavily upon the Lord, He will protect them through the abuse and the attempts at abuse. Look at Moses. How many times did they try to kill him. Look at the women God used powerfully. Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Abigail, Esther, Anna, Lydia, Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia and many others.
When God calls someone to serve Him and His people it’s not about being “over” anyone. One just needs to give what God gives them to give. But you are correct that it isn’t easy in this era. But we must stand for the truth. And we are only saying that Scripture doesn’t prohibit women from being used to teach, preach, lead, or speak forth with anointing. The problem is that there is such a warped view of what Christian ministry is today, that it resembles the power structures of big businesses. And I believe that people today far too often just decide they are going to be such and such without actually being called. And then even those who are called by God fail to yield to the anointing of the H.S. and so lead in carnal programs instead of inspired service.
For Christians, life is always full of battles, some big and some small. We just need to remember that Christ already won the battles.
John 16: 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Charis #53
You wrote: “I’m really not sure that God wants women to be head pastors over men. Look at the kind of abuse they take??GOD cares about us and want to PROTECT us from abusive people!!!”
Women take abuse because of wickedness in the world. Satan has always had it in for women and he always will. Nevertheless when God calls someone, if they will lean heavily upon the Lord, He will protect them through the abuse and the attempts at abuse. Look at Moses. How many times did they try to kill him. Look at the women God used powerfully. Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Abigail, Esther, Anna, Lydia, Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia and many others.
When God calls someone to serve Him and His people it’s not about being “over” anyone. One just needs to give what God gives them to give. But you are correct that it isn’t easy in this era. But we must stand for the truth. And we are only saying that Scripture doesn’t prohibit women from being used to teach, preach, lead, or speak forth with anointing. The problem is that there is such a warped view of what Christian ministry is today, that it resembles the power structures of big businesses. And I believe that people today far too often just decide they are going to be such and such without actually being called. And then even those who are called by God fail to yield to the anointing of the H.S. and so lead in carnal programs instead of inspired service.
For Christians, life is always full of battles, some big and some small. We just need to remember that Christ already won the battles.
John 16: 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Well I’ve received a warning and an infraction for daring to say that Matt was less than perfect on his radio show. Yeeeeesh, I can disagree with my pastor and still be allowed to speak but I guess CARM’s founder is more important. And here I thought I was being charitable. Guess not quite. 🙂
Well done Cheryl. IMO your integrity puts the man to shame.
You are so correct that this type of abuse is common among gender hierarchalists. May God have mercy on all those who are unwisely taking up these bad examples.