Kay

“if you think there is no distinction in the ‘church’ and other ministries i am very confused. Are you suggesting that Paul was writing to bible studies and youth groups etc. Surely not! What is the early church based on…the synagogue? There is most definately a ‘formal’ church in Pauls writing and this is precisely the context of what i am saying about men teaching. IF you think this is not the context of 1 Tim and 1 Cor please show me why?”

Mark,
Isn’t Bible study a time of worship by entering into the presence of God’s Word?
Why do you catagorize the preaching to or teaching of youth/children as less ‘formal’ or authoritative than other times believers gather to worship/learn the Word?
Why would it be o.k. to allow something less than authoritative teaching of the most gullible, most easily influenced people in the Church?
(“Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.”)
There were no church buildings in Ephesus. Houses for Christian worship did not begin to be built until two hundred years after the days of Paul, and were not general until Constantine put an end to persecution of Christians. In Paul’s day churches met, mostly, in the homes of Christian people. You may recall also that the Philippian church had its first meeting by a river and the second in Lydia’s home.

“Last night I finished loading my new upgrade to Logos Bible Software 4. I upgraded to the platinum version and the new version of Logos is mouth dropping amazing.”
Cheryl,
I confess…>green with envy< :0l

Being from a conservative southern U.S. state, I can remember my shock upon learning that the servant of Abraham gave Rebecca a nose ring as a present from Isaac – not just an “earring” like the KJV reads.

“apple; schmapple!” LOL!
Thanks, gengwall – just what I needed. Now, jotting it down…
It is unfortunate that in English the word “love” is not as clearly differentiated as the Greek (eros, philia, etc). Husbands are to love (agape) their wives. Wives are to love (philandros, to love as a friend) their husbands. (Titus 2:4)

And we are all to love (agape) one another as Christ loved us (Jn.13:34-35); We are all to be kindly affectionate (philostorgos, love of family) to one another with brotherly love (philadelphia, fraternal
affection) – Ro 12:10

“To say Jesus died on the cross because he was inferior (subordinate), and not because he was submitting, goes against scripture (Phil 2) and what he has told us to do (to submit).”

Well put, Dave. There is no such thing as a forced sacrifice. To compare the sacrificing of a son against their will, to Jesus willingly laying down His life so that we could have eternal life, is a gross misunderstanding.

gengwall,

Some time back you stated that scripture reveals Jesus only ever did three things…would you mind re-posting that…my middle-aged brain is unable to retrieve that info and I can’t seem to locate your original comment either. Thanks!

The issue of the two Marys would seem to be a sticky one for comps – and especially for the patriarchialists. Not only did God not consult with Joseph prior to Mary, He did not consult with Mary’s father either.

“It may also mean that Eve sinned before the Fall by choosing to act outside of her ‘gender role’ and out from under her ’spiritual leader.’”
“Eve was not instructed to follow a leader. Adam was not instructed to be a leader. Adam was instructed to tend the garden – protect it. In that he failed but it was not a matter of sin. He just allowed danger in. Their only sin was in disobeying God’s direct instructions.”
TL,
I guess I should have written >tongue in cheek< after that – apparently it didn’t come through as intended.

“I believe that we all teach each other at different times and in different ways. It is inevitable that men will sit under women teaching at various times and places. Where i do not believe a woman should teach is in the church. The 2 main texts concerned here are generally 1 Tim and 1 Cor 14. Both of these texts are within the framework of church worship and propriety, therefore that is why i believe Paul is restricting women teaching in that specific place.

‘Teaching’ is thrown aroung loosely regarding sunday school, youth, mission to try and show how ridiculous a comp position is. Realistically though this is not the setting of Pauls letters, so we should not throw into the text all other various instances of teaching which we might think of.”

Mark,
Brick and mortar do not a Church make. Believers are the Church.

“On the sabbath day we went outside the gate by the river, where we supposed there was a place of prayer; and we sat down and spoke to the women who had gathered there. A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul. When she and her household were baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come and stay at my home.” And she prevailed upon us. (Acts, chapter 16:13-15)

Can we deny that these women were the first congregation of Philippi? The first Church of Philippi?

Not all Christians were Jewish converts; not all met in synogogues.

Some prayer in the New Testament is directed to Jesus, not the Father. (Acts 7, Stephen prays as he’s being stoned “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” and “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”)
Why pray to the “subordinate” when one could just go straight to the top ‘ordinate’?

“In all honesty it seems like it is the egal attempt to discredit the distinctions made by some comps on essence/roles.”

Mark,
I don’t think it follows from difference in role that one must be superior in authority. I think that’s the major logical leap in the argument.

“This is a novel modern understanding, and throwing this back to early trinitarian debates is not correct in my opinion. In all honesty it seems like it is the egal attempt to discredit the distinctions made by some comps on essence/roles. I truly dont see any evidence of this type of understanding/reasoning in early church debates. But perhaps this is one of those areas we will agree to disagree.”

Mark,

Could you agree with these two statements?
Complementarians believe gradational authority, the idea that there are grades of authority within the Trinity.
Egalitarians believe in equivalent authority, the idea that, though the Father, Son and Spirit may opperate in different roles, they are equivalent in their authority.

If – “God ordains gender roles, then a woman is not a free agent to choose to live outside of them since it would be a matter of sin.”

Good point, pinklight!
It may also mean that Eve sinned before the Fall by choosing to act outside of her ‘gender role’ and out from under her ‘spiritual leader.’

“I think that comps who can brave any egalitarian “camp” should hold our deep respect.”

Absolutely. And Mark, the longer you’ve stayed with the discussion the more I’ve felt that way. It’s very unusual to find a complementarian who will dialog any length of time. I suppose the unwillingness of most to dialog about the issues, has led many of us to view critically those with opposing beliefs. Sorry, but when it happens over and over again, it’s difficult not to feel that way.

“There are “role” differences in the natural. Only women can be mothers. Only men can be fathers.”
And that being so, still not all women become mothers and not all men become fathers.

Mark,
In Philippians 2:8, a passage known for its description of Jesus’ incarnation and obedience to God, says that Jesus “became obedient to death.”
There was a point in time when that began, it was not eternally so.

“Father,” “Son,” and “Holy Spirit” are not the only names used for the Trinity. There are several typical terms: “God,” “Jesus” or “Christ,” and “Spirit.” If ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ are so important in conveying that relationship, why does Paul prefer the other one?

In fact, ‘Jesus’ preferred term for Himself was not ‘Son of God’ but ‘Son of Man.’

I wonder if we could persuade Mark to enter back into the discussion and give us his explanation on the matter?

“That is quite a conundrum.” You understate that so well, Cheryl. LOL

Have you ever been able to directly question any comp leaders/teachers about this…uhhh, hemmm… little problem?

So, if stepping out from under her ‘spiritual leader’ is a sin, then Eve sinned before The Fall. Isn’t that a giant monkey-wrench for some folk’s theology?

“To refuse that procreative role and to throw upon society that nurturing responsibility is to abdicate her highest calling and greatest usefulness to the Creator and to His created order. Women are called upon to make sacrifices; they are challenged to live selflessly. These sacrifices and a selfless life are essential for the continuation of the generations. Women cannot shun this greatest responsibility of maternity without endangering all of civilization.

Unfortunately, individualism, springing out of a postmodern culture, has driven parents inward to seek only personal goals and to be manipulated by selfish whims. Materialism has captured their hearts so that things are more important than children. This self-centered ideology allows many socially approved and legitimate right ways of doing things, and the right way is to be determined merely by personal choice or community consensus.

In Scripture, godly women were not concerned with whether or not they would receive discrimination in the marketplace but rather with whether or not their wombs were barren. Childlessness was looked upon as an affliction, an indication of worthlessness and insignificance (Gen. 29:32; 30:1). Women were not pining away, pleading with the Almighty that they might be priests or prophets. They were praying for the privilege of bearing a child.”
“God grant that we in this enlightened age do not “drop the ball” but rather hold to the ageless pattern of leaving life and death in the worthy hands of the Creator God.” – Dorothy Patterson

Lydia,
It saddened me to think of several childless couples I know perhaps reading these statements. If becoming pregnant was a life or death situation for her, I bet she’d choose to use contraception.

“I thought that I too was a homemaker until I read Dorothy’s description of her “role” as homemaker”

Matt. 23:4-7
“They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. They do all their deeds to be seen by others; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi.”

“And what would be the use for single women missionaries (like Lottie Moon) as they might find themselves in a position to teach a man but would be violating man made rules to do so.”

Having been a member of SBC churches in the past, I wondered at The Lottie Moon Christmas Offering every year – Helloooo, does anyone else see the irony of what we’re doing here? Because she’s been dead a long time, that makes it o.k. somehow? Or maybe you don’t really know who she was. Maybe you think she was just some nice lady that started the special Christmas offfering…

Yes, Dave. The hats were the clue.

“2. Now, just because the distinctions between the Father, Son and Spirit cannot be identified with or reduced to differing modes of action does not mean that God cannot serve in different roles in creation or redemption, or that certain tasks or operations may not be primarily associated with one or the other of the Divine Persons. However, the Early Church recognized that these distinctions in external action were not to be read back into the persons of the Trinity.”

Frank,
I think this point is pivitol. We can see in Scripture examples of God acting in a variety of ways. For instance as a mother would:
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.
It was I who taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize it was I who healed them.
I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love;
I lifted the yoke from their neck and bent down to feed them.”
Hosea 11:1-4
“I have kept still and restrained Myself. Now like a woman in labor I will groan, I will both gasp and pant.” Isa. 42:14

“Maybe that is the fundimental question that a comp should be required to answer before continued discussion: “so, fellow Christian, do you believe that Jesus is an insufficient spiritual cover for women?”

Could we follow that with “Who was covering Mary Magdalene on her way to tell the brethren that Jesus had risen?” and “When she reached them, why doesn’t it say which one took over as her ‘spiritual covering?

“When we are under law we are slaves to sin, but when we are under grace we are slaves to righteousness. The comp teaching places men under law (as well as women, obviously!). The law increases sin! I am so glad we are free from this (false) law, as it has helped me contribute more to our marriage than when I was told I had to!”

What could be better than a one-flesh mutually submitting, loving marriage without the purposed power struggles that complementarians deal with so much – as indicated by the amount of teaching and writing they are doing trying to regulate it?

Lin, I think you might agree with me saying that perhaps creating a problem and then having seminars and selling books and movies to solve it is very profitable. Could be some job security involved as well.

“The B.A. in humanities revolves around 20% of the instruction hours in homemaking with a fully equipped teaching kitchen, clothing and textiles lab, formal dining room and parlor along with Bible teaching in the classrooms. Will there be a male version of the B.A. in humanities?”

Cheryl,
I wonder if the Pattersons would let Jesus borrow the women’s kitchen. He cooked for His disciples.

“When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread. Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught…Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord. Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish.” John 21:8-13

Of course, since Jesus was cooking outside they probably call it ‘bar-b-queing’ – which then apparently makes it ‘manly.’ What if a man grills on a covered patio deck? Is that semi-manly? Let me check my Talmud.

My theory is that this will eventually split the SBC.

“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.” Matthew 23:10

How difficult is that to understand? Why wouldn’t someone question when what they think Paul is saying is the opposite of Jesus short and simple statement?

“No need for the Spirit in such families, I guess. As if it is the husband who gives out the spiritual gifts and decides in what measure each family member receives them.”

Distortion on every level. Can I say “hijacking the Holy Spirit”?

Why is it so scary for them to let each believer walk in the Spirit?
…is He somehow inadequate? or maybe He just doesn’t always do what they think is best.

No,Dave…must have been an echo.

“How sad is it that there are truly many, many fellow Christians who would claim both that I am shirking my responsibility and she is usurping my authority because of our approach to family prayer!”

What gets to me about that is somehow they can’t seem to allow for the husband choosing to “let” “relegate” (take your pick) that responsibility to the wife. No, no.