Michael Terran

The whole matter of sin also comes down to judging motive along with the sin. Eve died for her own sin but her motive was not rebellion. She sinned because of deception so it was impossible for her to pass on the inherited sin of rebellion.

That’s true, the word that she (EVE) used was “Beguilded” which is commonly tranlated “deceived”. The word “beguilded” in hebrew means fishermans bait to catch fish or something! The woman said to God “The Sepent Beguilded me and I did it!” She told the truth, the sepent used me, deceived me,then as fishermans bait or as bait to get to Adam! If we just let the bible speak for itself, it becomes clear. look up those herbrew words etc gives you the full deep meaning!

I think the reason why people are trying to see Hiarchy because there just looking at bits an pieces of scriptures and smashing then together instead of looking at it as a whole…The Whole Scope of Scripture….The Whole Scope of Salvation/Redemption. Then the Bible will flow like living water!

Sorry Jesus and The Father

Thanks justaberean #40 has the link

THE BELOW IS MY REPLY TO HIM. I KEPT IT SIMPLY NO MENTION OF NAMES.I DON’T WANT TO HINDER CHERYL’S DIALOG WITH MR. WARE. PLEASE E-MAIL ME CHERYL ON THIS, OK. THANKS

Hello Gerald, NOV 17,2007

My friend has been dialoging with Bruce ware in e-mail. I will get a copy of his e-mail replys to you etc. Also why not contact Mr. Ware yourself in the meantime through e-mail and ask him. Then get back to me, ok, bye.
Michael

I send him your point on # 17

I know your very busy but maybe you can give me Bruce ware’s reply that he (Type) said this.

Michael,
From your email, I see you to be arguing the following:
1) Bruce Ware concludes we shouldn’t pray to Jesus.

2) Bruce Ware believes the Father is worthy of greater honor than the Son or the Spirit.
If this summary is accurate, I would like to see documentation of such.
Thanks,
Gerald

The above e-mail was send to me. Cheryl do you have a documentation stating this (e-mail,letter etc) or did Bruce ware speak this to you? The Guy from Harest Church (which is like a mega Church) now wants info. I think this church would change if I can send this important info to him. Or should I just tell him to contact Bruce ware Himself?

Thanks all, Just helping out.

Cheryl,

I was just reading the book “The Father and The Son” pages 98-103 is a great teaching understanding on Phili. 2:5-11 !!! This is a key strong point for your Trinity DVD. The book breaks it all down to three stages going verse by vesre! Just letting you know.

Phrase “sons of God”
I always throught it this way if men are “Sons of God” then women are Daugthers of God, we are all Heirs etc. But Now I see this Male imagery and why women are used in it, to show Their Full Equal Share!

I just say this because some people teach (Take Out Of Context) that women will become men in heaven. Of course that’s not True and that is easy rebuked.

The phrase is “Sons of God” yet in the context is applyed to women as well. Is the phrase use so that we the reader see women are equal to men as join Heirs, we are all “Sons Of God” meaning Join Heirs. This Male imagery “Sons of God” has nothing to do with gender change. It’s just used to show Womens Equal Worth. Like the Female imagery “The Bride Of Christ” which men are also included in this imagery! Yet has nothing to do with gender change(Men becoming Women), there will alway be Male and Female in His image. The Bride imagery is to show that closeness, oneness (partakers of the Divine nature),the deep love He (Christ) has for his Bride. Yet males are inculded like I said in this Female imagery! If we Link these two imagerys “Male & Female” it shows Equality of Male & Female. Right here is two witnesses, the two imagerys!

I think I typed all this so no one on the other opposing side can say or take this out of context to mean “sameness”( only one gender) or asexual etc. No

Male and Female will both be in Heaven and these two imagerys just show Biblical Equaliy,Fairness,Full Join Heirs For All Of Gods Children, No Hiarchy. Perfect, Just how it should be.

Cheryl,

Thanks for the reply. Yeah in the book “Father Son” Chapter 5 is a eye opener! I try to read books cover to cover, but then I stop and just flip around a bit. But once I was reading chapter 5 I couldn’t put it down, I was like no way they really think that etc etc.

The other book that you and I have is a good book. It goes very deep into the creeds and the people who wrote them and scripture which is find. That book shows more of what the creeds were rebuking and has scripture as backup. But the book “Father Son” uses more scripture and what scripture rebukes first then uses the creeds as a backup. So both books do go together very well. When you get your book and compare the two , no matter how you flip it so to speak the teaching is complete as far as what we know about the Trinity.

Cheryl,

You should get the book The Father and The Son because that book deals more on the relationship of the Father and Son within scripture not just on the Creeds. If I had to give one of those books to a person with the opposing view I would give them that book first “The Father and The Son”. I have both books and the Father Son is more of a clear read and deep yet focses more on scripture then uses the creeds as a backup.

Also my understand in scripture where it saids “The Head of Christ is God… etc etc.”
It’s doesn’t mean rule over NOOO. The Source (Head) of the “incarnation” of Christ is God because Jesus is God! An the incarnation does have a starting point in time. Jesus emptied himself only for alittle while “Temporal” Not eternally! After he rose the statment is Jesus Is Lord!

Jesus has no beginning or end because he is God, He alway was an is.

That’s my understanding of that verse while taking the whole scope of scripture into context. Because scripture will not go against other scripture!

THIS IS MY REPLY TO HIS E-MAIL. HOW DID I DO.

Hello Gerald

First we see God the Father give everything to the Son…He puts everything under his feet. Then the Son Gives it all back to the Father. The is showing Mutual Dependence (Unity). They Glorify one another. There are 3 distinct persons (Father Son Holy Spirit) yet they all have one will they all work in Harmony with one another. You don’t see that. Pray for wisdom and understanding dude!

Do you deny that there is hierarchy in respect to the Church’s relationship with Christ? What does it mean to you that Christ is the head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23)? Does this mean the same thing when the NT speaks of the husband as the head of the wife (1 Corinthians 11:3)?

You think head means to rule over and that is not the context.It means Source.
Christ is the Source (Head) of the Church just as the man was the Source (Head) of the woman. Even though there was no death in the beginning Adam went into a death like state (deep sleep) so to speak. Woman is made and she dies to herself an sticks to her husband. Just as Christ died to give us life we die to ourselves and stick to Christ! No Hierarchy

Plus Christ is in a class all by himself because He is God and we are creation.

God The Father is a Father yet he has no Father or a wife yet he has a Son.God the Son is a Son yet he has no beginning because he always was (John 1:1). So my point is Human Language can only go so far in explaining God because are Language is Limited!

The relationship between God the Father an God the Son
Is Different From relationship between how a Husband an Wife relate to one another! You see what I mean.

Jesus emptied Himself only for alittle while. After he rose the statement is Jesus Is Lord!.

You say your Church believes in the Nicene Creed yet you all believe in the very things that they Rebuked. Jesus is not Eternal Subordinate in Function or order/authority to the Father. That idea was Also rebuked by the Nicene Creed & Athanasius Creed, you need to check that out, I did. The early church Never believed in a Eternal Subordinate Son Never. As goofy as the Catholic Church is they don’t even believe that! That was rebuked!

You want to keep women subordinate to men and when the order of creation idea failed now your messing with the Trinity! Reading false preceived ideas into scripture, you can make the bible say anything you want it to say but it’s not in it’s context and if something is out of context it’s an error. Scripture will not go against or contradict other scriptures.The Bible teaches Equality between Male & Female Black & White etc. These people who are trying to mess with the Trinity are full of Pride and they are afraid to lose power or authority. Those men and women who are re-packaging this form of arian Hersey will answer greatly to God! My Jesus has Full Authority…Jesus Is Lord…..How about You?

Michael Terran

THIS E-MAIL WAS SEND TO ME FROM A CHURCH THAT TEACHES HIARCHY!

Michael,

Thanks for your follow-up email. I must say, it’s a better attempt than your previous “that’s how cults interpret 1 Corinthians 15:28.” But I’m still not convinced. Here are a couple of thoughts:

First, your interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:28 below results in a faulty division of the personhood of Christ. I find it very difficult to imagine how you can speak of the “third person of the Trinity” as somehow different than the “glorified Jesus who is the human son.” Jesus is not two separate persons—one human and one divine. The ancient Christian dogmas regarding Christology insist that Christ is one person, existing in two natures. It seems to me that you are confusing Christ’s singular personhood with his dual natures. Also, this verse isn’t about “the incarnate human son who for a time subjected himself.” Clearly 1 Cor. 15:28 speaks of Jesus, the glorified divine/human person—who, upon entering the eternal age—permanently subjects himself (his entire person, not just his human nature) to God the Father. The idea that Christ is merely subjecting his human nature to God is redundant in that Christ’s humanity has always been subject and inferior to the divine nature (even his own). This passage makes sense only when we read it in light of Christ’s personhood—of which he only has one, not about his dual natures. I welcome your thoughts on this.

Second, as I’m sure you’re aware, the egalitarian/complementarian debate involves more than the Trinity issue. How do you understand the New Testament teaching regarding the parallel relationship between Christ and the Church, and the Husband and the Wife (Ephesians 5:21-32)? Do you deny that there is hierarchy in respect to the Church’s relationship with Christ? What does it mean to you that Christ is the head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23)? Does this mean the same thing when the NT speaks of the husband as the head of the wife (1 Corinthians 11:3)?

Respond as you have time, and if you desire.

Many blessings, my brother,

Gerald

My one question is this: If the opposing side is saying Jesus is eternal subordinated. And ALL other doctrine is based on the Trinity including Salvation…Do they have Another Jesus? I mean how many things do you have to get wrong about someone before you step in an say “Hey, that isn’t that person, who are you talking about?”

I type the above in Great Love but it’s an honest Question,right.

Have you read Giles books: “The Trinity and Subordinationism”, and “Jesus and The Father?” Excellent works on this subject

Yes I have both books and they are Great. Cheryl you need to read and look both these books over!

Also I reckament Having KEVIN GILES AND GILBERT BILEZIKIAN speak on the Trinity for the DVD. I live in Chicago and Gilbert I think is in ILL. he goes to williow creek church. He wrote many books one is “Beyond Sex Roles” and he teaches Great on the Trinity. Maybe you can use their voice clips/cliping of there teaching on the Trinity for the DVD, just get in contact with them, I’m sure they be happy to help. Use Everything we have and lets get this matter Right!

Rachel my (Best Friend)sister in Christ and I Saw Kevin Giles speak on the Trinity when he was here in IL.! It was Great

Thanks for Online Sunday School Class!

God did speak to Eve. Thanks Cheryl for this wisdom from the Spirit!

Lord Jesus Forgive me for believing that Eve added to your word or lied!

Now I have the Right Truth & Understanding. Yes WITHOUT adding to the text it becomes clear. In my personal study I no longer read into scripture but only read what is there and no more, then I take the whole scope of scripture into accord as well!

God knew that for her, once see touched it then God knew adam would partake an join in of his own free will! God knew how satan was going to tempt/get each one!

Also if she did add to the command Adam would have blamed her for that but he doesn’t! Also God would have called her on that if she did add to his word. But nothing of the kind is in the account…Nothing. Yes, this is a learning for us all, to handle the word of God with Great Care!

When you break it down going verse by verse and also with key word understanding, Greek. Also keeping the Context and finding the right interpatation is key because when done right the Whole bible flows together!

I can’t remember where but a complementarian is trying to use the Creation of SUN & MOON to prove women are lesser etc. At first I was LOL then I said ok I can play that. Here is my understanding

Both were made in the image that God had in mind and spoke it into being. The MOON is the glory of the SUN but both are made in Gods image/design. Also more or less we get 12 hours of Sunlight (Day)and 12 hours of Moonlight (Night)…they both have equal rule! Also what do we do about Alaska LOL 30 days of night!

I thought I heard it all but that’s false teaching you never know what they will try to use against us! But when you test it its pretty clear that whoever tried to use this imaging only worked against them. It’s sad though how people try to mess with the word of God! What’s next Apples to Oranges!?

That’s Great. The key is to ask meaningful questions and to test everything, just like scripture saids. An to do it all in Love. I can see another DVD that answers even more questions in the future making!

Now the oppossing side in more words or less is saying that men are more free then women?!

I’m sticking with Jesus and HIS FREEDOM: Luke 4:12, John8:30-32
(Smiling). The Son Set Us ALL FREE!

QUOTE:Didn’t know the slaveholders used that terminology. Really fits since the Baptists were the primary force in keeping slavery and are now the primary force in keeping male dominance and male authority the primary theme of churchianity. Only now they are patriarchal, complementarian Baptists.
And I would say that the bogeyman was brought into the CARM discussion by their new category of the discussions. Hmmmm!:END QUOTE

I agree with the comment above from “JustaBerean”. It was the southern “Christians” who made the bible say something it didn’t…..enslaving people because there skin tone was darker!!!!! That was one issue and now we have this issue…Women! I can see that history does repeat itself in different ways/issues. Trying to show once again that the Bible sets women as well as men FREE. When will the otherside see the word FREE and believe it!!!!!!!!

Luke 4:18
” THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

John 8:30-32 (New American Standard Bible)
30As He spoke these things, (A)many came to believe in Him.

The Truth Will Make You Free
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “(B)If you continue in My word, then you are truly (C)disciples of Mine;
32and (D)you will know the truth, and (E)the truth will make you free.”

“Emerging Church”…..WARNING WARNING WARNING!!!!!!!!!

This movement is deadly, It’s a bridge back to Rome! All the religions of the world will go into a “One World Order” and Anti-Christ will be right there to rule it with the False Prophet! It will all “appear” Christian to the world but it will be a lie…..truth mixed with lies=Falsehood/Poison!We can see this happening now and after the Rapture it will be worse because then Anti-Christ comes on the scene!

I have no problem that women are teaching truth however we need to stay out of movements that are going down the wide road no matter how friendly they “appear” to be. Don’t put nothing pass the Devil, that’s just like him, get a movement going, where everyone can be accepted etc…”The Emerging Church”mix alot of truth with some Lies etc etc etc. However The Emerging Church/Emergant Church (Same Thing) is a false movement. They want peace (now) but without Christ, They think man will do this. This movement is into newage/pagan practices under/using Christian Lingo!

The “Emerging Church” is a tower of Babel. When we first read of Babel in Genesis 11, we see that The LORD God scattered them (The People) abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

But now we see our generation of people going back to Babel (so to speak) to finish where those wicked people left off! Only this time they will finish but God will not scatter them like before but Destory Them and There Tower (One World Religon”)!

Your my Sisters in Christ and I must warn you all to stay away from that movement no matter how friendly it may be to women because that movement is false and that would reck everything that women in Christ are contending for, which is…..The Faith/Bibical Equality/Jesus!

Under Stand the Times ministries By Rogar Oakland exposes this movement. Test Everything!!! Here is his website: http://www.understandthetimes.org/

A Hebrew concordant version
The Stone Edition Tanach

Thanks, once you pulled out the big guns I knew this verse would be understandable! LOL
That’s why I’m on this site to learn so I can tell others if this verse ever came up! Now I know! Praise be to the Holy Spirit our God who guides us! Amen

Hello everyone,

Can anyone give me there info/insight on this verse Isa.3:12?

hello teknomom,

That’s right ….Paul used the law when he could…an the Roman one at that!

Dr. Sheri Klouda is great and has a great record. Exposing discrimnation and using the law of the land to get justice is the way to go. The Lord has these justice systems in place so people can get a measure of justice one way or another in this sinnerful world. Of course True Justice will come when Jesus comes back!

With evrything on the table what is Isa.3:12 talking about?

View # 1
The men of Jerusalem won’t even listen to the Women and Children.

View # 2
The men of Jerusalem are listening to Women and Children (Who are unschooled in God’s Word) and being misled by false teachings. This verse is not saying or impying a women or child can never teach but that women or children must learn God’s word. Also is this verse saying that the women were uneduated just like the children?! Neither
group knew anymore then the other and therefore teaching falsely because of that fact?Is this another prove that women were not taught God’s Word……just like the Talmund taught…history shows it….and The bible said it!

Ecclesiastes 10:16 (King James Version)
16Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child, and thy princes eat in the morning!

Isaiah 60:17 (King James Version)
17For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.

Isaiah 60:17 (Amplified Bible)
17Instead of bronze I will bring gold, and instead of iron I will bring silver; and instead of wood, bronze, and instead of stones, iron. [Instead of the tyranny of the present] I will appoint peace as your officers and righteousness as your taskmasters.

The cross references for Isa. 3:12 are below:
Isaiah 9:16
16(A)For those who guide this people are leading them astray;
And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion.

Isaiah 28:14
Judah Is Warned
14Therefore, (A)hear the word of the LORD, O (B)scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,

Isaiah 28:15
15Because you have said, “We have made a (A)covenant with death,
And with Sheol we have made a pact
(B)The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,
For we have made (C)falsehood our refuge and we have (D)concealed ourselves with deception.”

Isaiah 29:15 (New American Standard Bible)
15Woe to those who deeply (A)hide their plans from the LORD,
And whose (B)deeds are done in a dark place,
And they say, “(C)Who sees us?” or “Who knows us?”

Isaiah 3:12 (King James Version)
12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

THE OPPOSING SIDE IS TRYING TO USE VERSES LIKE ISAIAH 3:12 ABOVE TO STOP WOMEN FROM TEACHING, BUT IS THAT THE CONTEXT?
I HAVE SOME INFO ON ISA. 3:12 BELOW, ANY THOUGHTS ON THIS VERSE WOULD BE GREAT!

(Commantary # 1)

V. 13, even while the Lord is judging them with women and children, He pleads with His people to return to Him. Romans 2 tells us that there is a point of no return when the evil of a people is full and no amount of pleading will change the judgment (cf. Jer 15:1). But evidently the point has not arrived yet for these people; He is pleading with them to return.

(Commantary # 2) (More detail, look at the whole cha.!!!) The link is below

Chapter 3 Next »

CHAPTER 3
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/jamieson/jfb.x.xxiii.iv.html
Isa 3:1-26.

1. For—continuation of Isa 2:22.

Lord of hosts—therefore able to do as He says.

doth—present for future, so certain is the accomplishment.

stay … staff—the same Hebrew word, the one masculine, the other feminine, an Arabic idiom for all kinds of support. What a change from the previous luxuries (Isa 2:7)! Fulfilled in the siege by Nebuchadnezzar and afterwards by Titus (Jer 37:21; 38:9).

2. Fulfilled (2Ki 24:14).

prudent—the Hebrew often means a “soothsayer” (De 18:10-14); thus it will mean, the diviners, on whom they rely, shall in that day fail. It is found in a good sense (Pr 16:10), from which passage the Jews interpret it a king; “without” whom Israel long has been (Ho 3:4).

ancient—old and experienced (1Ki 12:6-8).

3. captain of fifty—not only captains of thousands, and centurions of a hundred, but even semi-centurions of fifty, shall fail.

honourable—literally, “of dignified aspect.”

cunning—skilful. The mechanic’s business will come to a standstill in the siege and subsequent desolation of the state; artisans are no mean “stay” among a nation’s safeguards.

eloquent orator—rather, as Vulgate, “skilled in whispering,” that is, incantation (Ps 58:5). See Isa 8:19, below; and on “prudent,” see on Isa 3:2.

4. children—in ability for governing; antithesis to the “ancient” (see Isa 3:12; Ec 10:16).

babes—in warlike might; antithesis to “the mighty” and “man of war.”

5. The anarchy resulting under such imbecile rulers (Isa 3:4); unjust exactions mutually; the forms of respect violated (Le 19:32).

base—low-born. Compare the marks of “the last days” (2Ti 3:2).

6. Such will be the want of men of wealth and ability, that they will “take hold of” (Isa 4:1) the first man whom they meet, having any property, to make him “ruler.”

brother—one having no better hereditary claim to be ruler than the “man” supplicating him.

Thou hast clothing—which none of us has. Changes of raiment are wealth in the East (2Ki 5:5).

ruin—Let our ruined affairs be committed to thee to retrieve.

7. swear—literally, “lift up,” namely, his hand; the gesture used in solemn attestation. Or, his voice, that is, answer; so Vulgate.

healer—of the body politic, incurably diseased (Isa 1:6).

neither … clothing—so as to relieve the people and maintain a ruler’s dignity. A nation’s state must be bad indeed, when none among men, naturally ambitious, is willing to accept office.

8. Reason given by the prophet, why all shrink from the government.

eyes of his glory—to provoke His “glorious” Majesty before His “eyes” (compare Isa 49:5; Hab 1:13). The Syriac and Lowth, by a slight change of the Hebrew, translate, “the cloud of His glory,” the Sheki[nah.

9](logos4:///Bible/Na 9). show—The Hebrew means, “that which may be known by their countenances” [Gesenius and Weiss]. But Maurer translates, “Their respect for person”; so Syriac and Chaldee. But the parallel word “declare” favors the other view. Kimchi, from the Arabic, translates “their hardness” (Job 19:3, Margin), or impudence of countenance (Jer 3:3). They have lost not only the substance of virtue, but its color.

witness—literally, “corresponds” to them; their look answers to their inner character (Ho 5:5).

declare—(Jude 13). “Foaming out their own shame”; so far from making it a secret, “glorying” in it (Php 3:19).

unto themselves—Compare “in themselves” (Pr 1:31; 8:36; Jer 2:19; Ro 1:27).

10. The faithlessness of many is no proof that all are faithless. Though nothing but croaking of frogs is heard on the surface of the pool, we are not to infer there are no fish beneath [Bengel]. (See Isa 1:19, 20).

fruit of doings—(Pr 1:31) in a good sense (Ga 6:8; Re 22:14). Not salvation by works, but by fruit-bearing faith (Isa 45:24; Jer 23:6). Gesenius and Weiss translate, Declare as to the righteous that, &c. Maurer, “Say that the righteous is blessed.”

11. ill—antithesis to “well” (Isa 3:10); emphatic ellipsis of the words italicized. “Ill!”

hands—his conduct; “hands” being the instrument of acts (Ec 8:12, 13).

12. (See Isa 3:4).

oppressors—literally, “exactors,” that is, exacting princes (Isa 60:17). They who ought to be protectors are exactors; as unqualified for rule as “children,” as effeminate as “women.” Perhaps it is also implied that they were under the influence of their harem, the women of their court.

lead—Hebrew, “call thee blessed”; namely, the false prophets, who flatter the people with promises of safety in sin; as the political “rulers” are meant in the first clause.

way of thy paths—(Jer 6:16). The right way set forth in the law. “Destroy”—Hebrew, “Swallow up,” that is, cause so utterly to disappear that not a vestige of it is left.

13. standeth up—no longer sitting in silence.

plead—indignant against a wicked people (Isa 66:16; Eze 20:35).

14. ancients—Hence they are spoken of as “taken away” (Isa 3:1, 2).

vineyard—the Jewish theocracy (Isa 5:1-7; Ps 80:9-13).

eaten up—”burnt”; namely, by “oppressive exactions” (Isa 3:12). Type of the crowning guilt of the husbandmen in the days of Jesus Christ (Mt 21:34-41).

spoil … houses—(Mt 23:14).

15. What right have ye to beat, &c. (Ps 94:5; Mic 3:2, 3).

grind—by exactions, so as to leave them nothing.

faces—persons; with the additional idea of it being openly and palpably done. “Presence,” equivalent to “face” (Hebrew).

16. Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, &c.—Luxury had become great in Uzziah’s prosperous reign (2Ch 26:5).

stretched forth—proudly elevated (Ps 75:5).

wanton—rather, “making the eyes to glance about,” namely, wantonly (Pr 6:13) [Maurer]. But Lowth, “falsely setting off the eyes with paint.” Women’s eyelids in the East are often colored with stibium, or powder of lead (see on Job 42:14; Jer 4:30, Margin).

mincing—tripping with short steps.

tinkling—with their ankle-rings on both feet, joined by small chains, which sound as they walk, and compel them to take short steps; sometimes little bells were attached (Isa 3:18, 20).

17. smite with a scab—literally, “make bald,” namely, by disease.

discover—cause them to suffer the greatest indignity that can befall female captives, namely to be stripped naked, and have their persons exposed (Isa 47:3; compare with Isa 20:4).

18. bravery—the finery.

tinkling—(See Isa 3:16).

cauls—network for the head. Or else, from an Arabic root, “little suns,” answering to the “tires” or neck-ornaments, “like the moon” (Jud 8:21). The chumarah or crescent is also worn in front of the headdress in West Asia.

19. chains—rather, pendants, hanging about the neck, and dropping on the breast.

mufflers—veils covering the face, with apertures for the eyes, close above and loosely flowing below. The word radically means “tremulous,” referring to the changing effect of the spangles on the veil.

20. bonnets—turbans.

ornaments of the legs—the short stepping-chains from one foot to another, to give a measured gait; attached to the “tinkling ornaments” (Isa 3:16).

headbands—literally, “girdles.”

tablets—rather, “houses of the breath,” that is, smelling boxes [Vulgate].

earrings—rather, amulets suspended from the neck or ears, with magic formulæ inscribed; the root means to “whisper” or “conjure.”

21. nose jewels—The cartilage between the nostrils was bored to receive them; they usually hung from the left nostril.

22. Here begin entire articles of apparel. Those before were single ornaments.

changeable—from a root, “to put off”; not worn commonly; put on and off on special occasions. So, dress-clothes (Zec 3:4).

mantles—fuller tunics with sleeves, worn over the common one, reaching down to the feet.

wimples—that is, mufflers, or hoods. In Ru 3:15, “veils”; perhaps here, a broad cloak, or shawl, thrown over the head and body.

crisping pins—rather, money bags (2Ki 5:23).

23. glasses—mirrors of polished metal (Ex 38:8). But the Septuagint, a transparent, gauze-like, garment.

hoods—miters, or diadems (Isa 62:3; Zec 3:5).

veils—large enough to cover the head and person. Distinct from the smaller veils (“mufflers”) above (Ge 24:65). Token of woman’s subjection (1Co 11:10).

24. stink—arising from ulcers (Zec 14:12).

girdle—to gird up the loose Eastern garments, when the person walked.

rent—the Septuagint, better, a “rope,” an emblem of poverty; the poor have nothing else to gird up their clothes with.

well-set hair—(1Pe 3:3, 4).

baldness—(Isa 3:17).

stomacher—a broad plaited girdle.

sackcloth—(2Sa 3:31).

burning—a sunburnt countenance, owing to their hoods and veils being stripped off, while they had to work as captives under a scorching sun (So 1:6).

25. Thy men—of Jerusalem.

26. gates—The place of concourse personified is represented mourning for the loss of those multitudes which once frequented it.

desolate … sit upon … ground—the very figure under which Judea was represented on medals after the destruction by Titus: a female sitting under a palm tree in a posture of grief; the motto, Judæa capta (Job 2:13; La 2:10, where, as here primarily, the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar is alluded to).

Thanks for the answer! It seems that God allowed this to take place and God doesn’t disputy it, ok Matthias is the 12th!

Pauls example is simple… weather he was part of the 12 or not, it’s not so much about office but about answering your higher calling and using your gift/ gifts from God to the full.

The 12 I think was for Israel….12 Tribes etc and the foundation along with the prophets etc.

As for “Junia”, Yes I believe she was a Female Apostle like Paul! I have done alot of research from both sides of the issue and I believe Junia was a woman gifted by God!