tiro

Pinklight, 1 Cor. 11:3 is a chronological listing of events in which honor is given to the one who is pre-eminent in each one. This follows a theme in chap. 10 of not using one’s freedom as a Christian for selfish ends but rather seeking the benefit of others. It is followed by a discussion of women’s attire in public while preaching and praying. This highlights that a woman is free in Christ to use the gifts of the HS. It also highlights that when we are bestowed a gift to share we do so to benefit others not take honor to ourselves. Thus our attitude is one of humility. Paul does this in such a clever way that he commands respect and humility from the women first, but also indirectly toward the women at the same time. For the woman must have autonomy in order to yield to God’s Spirit (vs. 10). Nevertheless, neither men nor women can act totally independently of one another (a call for humility). In real life there is balance….. first woman came from and for the man, now all men will come from (and for… a mother) the woman. And finally, we are all to discern for ourselves (not bound by rules) for there are no such rules established in the church in general.

All of that to say, “the husband is the head of the wife”, needs to be considered contextually where ever it is. Different subject matter and meaning in 1 Cor. 11 than in Ephe. where the wife is to ‘consider’ her husband her head.

Grudem’s lust for male power seems evident to me in how he struggles to rearrange everything to come to that conclusion. It’s inventive. And it follows the ways of the world. I’ll never forget the day when as a young woman I overheard a bunch of young adult men talking about dating and women. Their topic of the day was that if a man played the game right, the women would treat them as gods. Apparently, it was working for some of them. 🙂

Regarding submit, I suspect part of the problem is language and modern usage. Perhaps, if we tried to stick moreso to the Greek meaning of arranging oneself under, it would be easier to see that it doesn’t require authority in the something or someone we arrange ourselves under.

Wouldn’t it be great if we could persuade CBE to put out a men’s study Bible? 🙂 If anyone knows any of the VIP’s of CBE, now is the time to get someone working on publishing such a Bible with good notes. All they do is pick a decent translation and add some pertinent notes.

The Women’s Study Bible was noted by Catherine Clark Kroeger, Mary Evans and Elaine Storkey. What egal men would be good to do notes for a men’s study Bible?

For new believers I am recommending TNIV for reading. For women I’m recommending the NRSV Study Bible for Women. It’s NT only and sold by Amazon and CBE. The notes are life giving. I wish someone would put out a similar Men’s Study Bible with the same or similar notes. The men’s study Bibles seem to get all the male only dominance thrown at them. 🙁

Great testimony Cheryl. Thanks for posting it. 🙂

Thank you Cheryl for bringing this up to the forefront again, even though (as Just A Berean wrote on Severs Blog) it has been answered ad nauseum by Christian egals, citing many more than one instance of answers.

It is indeed time that Grudem started some attempts at answering the refutations to his teachings on these issues.

Don’t give up truthseeker. Sometimes the best things take more work to find and secure. They are worth the wait.

The online Christian world is an amazing adventure I agree. 🙂 Even though I’m involved in a good church, I depend greatly on the fellowship I receive online. And so wish they all were closer for realtime fellowship.

“Eve’s death does not end the consequences of her transgression for women (Genesis 3:15-16).”

What do you think are the consequences of Eve’s and Adam’s transgression, for humans born since?

I really appreciate the time you take to explain these verses to us, Cheryl. And I especially appreciate the ‘can nots’.

1. The ‘they’ cannot refer to Eve or Adam, as they are dead.
2. The she vs. they is incorrect grammar to be referring to all women.
3. Also, the specific switch from plural to singular in vs. 11 is of note.

Some of the problem that we as English speakers have is that in this era we do mangle tenses, which is something that was not allowed in say 50 years ago (except maybe for hillbilly’s and cowboys who talked any way they wanted). As well it was not done in other languages. And Paul was a scholar of the highest caliber. He just didn’t do that.

“The meaning of this word is not related to Christian activity and this is why it is never used in scripture other than this one time where it is used as a prohibition.”

Excellent point, Cheryl. Nowhere is anyone in the whole of Scripture told to authenteo another person. It would be an activity that is ungodly behavior. Sometimes, its just amazing how legalism and gross literalism (i.e. not really thinking things through in context) leads people in the strangest places.

Charis,

Nice to see someone else ‘gets’ what I’m pondering about. 🙂

Relative to that are the admonishments about elders in 1 Tim. The Greek word has a foundation in one being older. There are words that just mean aged, that mean aged man or woman, that mean elder in ministry and that mean an elder man or woman in ministry. They all share a root that mean aged/elder. The thing that is important about it IMO, is that an older person has some maturity (well not all ) from the experiences of life and seeing his perspectives change. As well, an older person is not as controlled by hormones. Sometimes hormones are like “blood in the eyes”. We still see something through them but they definitely color what we see.

As you can tell I am not in agreement with the view that being “an elder” in the church is just about being in a supervisory ‘position’ of authority over. IMO it is about an older more experienced and mature person being a spiritual watcher over those who are younger. There are those elders who teach and there are those elders who watch and whatever else that entails.

LOL yes, Eve’s conception was GREATLY increased. 🙂

Conception can be a large category. I’ve been pondering the whole hormonal thing. We see how intense the rest of the animal/creaturely kingdom gets during mating season. That is all they think about. Everything stands almost still while all attention is given to mating.

But humans have mating season all year long after puberty. And when hormones kick in, young adults are out of control with the whole male/female thing. Especially in the first 25 or so years many men and women revolve life around their sexuality. I am really wondering if this is what God meant when He said that conception will increase.

LOL yes, gengwall. That was my point. Oral history tends to leave out a lot of facts and just homes in on certain pertinent ones.

🙂

I’ve often wondered whether they ‘knew’ each other a lot more often than Scripture states. 🙂 Oral history simply did not record the names of every child. Because otherwise, we’d have to say that they sure weren’t much interested in sex, with the third child being born at 130 years later.

LOL

This brings in an interesting question of who actually did the naming.

Gen. 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.” 26 And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh.[c] Then men began to call on the name of the LORD.

Gen. 5:3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

It could very well be that because in a marriage the two are viewed as one, so that the wife may do most of the naming but the husband when speaking represented the two of them when it was said “he named”. So even if the two of them named together, either could say “I named”. Interesting.

Interesting also, is that was said right after it was said that their name was Mankind, or Humanity, or Human. Your pick. So in Genesis 5, maybe the first three uses of adham, could more properly be read as “the human”. Thus, the geneology of the human, they both having the designation of ‘the human’ and the birth of their first son and ‘the human’ naming him Seth.

Or maybe things like hatred, anger, and similar fuel and imbalance in our systems??

So true Lin. The evidence is all around us. Maybe women who do want to dominate have an imbalance or too much testosterone in their systems. 🙂

As I was contemplating what God said to Eve a couple days ago, I had an interesting thought. What if God was telling Eve in a way that she would understand then, at the beginning of time, that because of sin her hormones would go haywire, as well as the man’s. A lot of studies about hormones show that testosterone overbalance is partly responsible for rage and domination desires in males. And well, we women know what some of the hormonal imbalances do to us.

http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2009/01/24/the-emperor-has-no-clothes/comment-page-1/#comment-5387

that is what right clicking produces, so I don’t think that will work without the comment numbers. 🙂

thanks for the printing option. that really helps.

You are welcome. 🙂

I would search through these articles as Cheryl does some excellent research that is easy to understand. Also, at these forums:
http://www.equalitycentral.com/forum

Books:
“Discovering Biblical Equality,complementarity without hierarchy” by Pierce and Groothuis
“Why Not Women” by Cunningham and Hamilton
“Jesus and the Father” by Giles (indirectly touches on women in ministry)

Hello Trent.  Would you be a member or ex member of the CCC yahoo list by any chance.

The question you might ask yourself, is where does Scripture specifically say that women cannot minister to the church.  If you also read 1 Cor. 12, you will see that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the express purpose of ministering to the church, the ekklesia.  It does not matter where the ekklesia is, in or out of a building, nor how many are gathered.  Everyone is to desire the best gifts for the purpose of ministering to the church in general.  And when the church comes together, we are to bring something to share according to 1 Cor.14:26+, including a teaching, a song, a prophesy, etc.

One needs to read the whole context.

Cheryl,  is there a way that your posts can have an option of “print ready” format.  I want to use this in my Women’s Bible Study.  We’re studying Eve at the moment.  Printing the pages as is , I end up with everything on the right as well, which is wasted paper.

The eternal subordination of the Son to the Father is becoming more prominent with comps who blindly follow the most notable leaders in their movement.  Most have not really thought it through to know what they are accepting.  They just pick up popular “by lines”.

what a nice thought Lin.

Bountiful hugs to you sis!  🙂

Sometimes, the internet is a major part of one’s inner healing from abuse, BECAUSE we can find others who understand to dialogue with.

It has been a major major help in my life.

I am so sorry to hear that you are in pain.  However, as one who has learned to live with pain in the last 3 years, I’ve also learned it can be a good reason to be sure to take our quiet times with the Lord.  Sometimes we can keep going and going, when we should be taking time out.  The pace of our world’s system in this era is just too fast really.

Thinking of you in prayer……

I do hope that is the way of it.  I know its a difficult conversation for him, although he didn’t think so at first.  At first he was all bravado, and said, “sure, give it your best shot”.  But underneath I suspect he is now  both angry and scared. Prayers are surely in order.

Thank you Cheryl.

It took an interesting turn. He acknowledged that my understanding of ezer may be correct.  After I answered a few more of his statements he decided he didn’t want to talk anymore.  I think I shook his pedestal.  :o)

No javascript is part of Safari, one cannot disable it, I don’t think.

none work for me… not even BOLD.  boohoo   🙁

LOL glad I’m only a small distraction.  you can delete all this silly stuff if you wish.