tiro

the html is still not working for me, but the smilie came back ???

The html was not working for me…

I emptied cache and history, then logged out.  Now I’ll try again.  Sorry for the distraction.

🙁

all my formatting went south…..   🙁

If you can figure it out Cheryl, please fix.  I’m going to have to clear cookies or something.   🙁

“Do you truly mean to suggest that I might go to hell if my understanding of Matt 2:9 is faulty?”

Goodness no.  🙂  I was just quoting another imperfect saying of humans.

“Do you claim that everything that appears in whatever church literature you read IS infallible?”

Again, goodness no.   🙂  My point was that no one is perfect in understanding, no one person, no one church understands EVERYTHING, which is yet another reason why we must really stick to Scripture as Cheryl is saying.  Only Scripture is infallible.

P.S. Cheryl….. seems my html did not go through.  Must be something wrong….  even the smiley was lost.   🙁

You know the saying, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”.  No ones best intentions or even best interpretations are worth enough to hang onto them even when they are wrong.  Interpretations do not belong to God.  That is not in Scripture.  Truth belongs to God, and He reveals it to us in Scripture.  Gen. 40:8 says that interpretations of dreams belong to God, not everything.

Tom, if there is no claim to infallibility, then there should be no problem letting go of an idea that is really not found in Scripture.  I’ve let go of many ideas over the years that I discovered were not really true.    Why clink to something you can see is incorrect, especially such a small thing. It’s not worth the effort.   🙂

One thought for balance.

Even though it is true that JW’s are wrong on this point, it doesn’t mean that everything they have to say is wrong.  It only illustrates the point that we have to test all things and hold onto that which is good and true according to Scripture.  Scripture is the final judge, for by it will we be judged in the final day.

48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Off topic….

Please pray for an ongoing discussion with a long time friend in my church.  We are debating the subject of female subjection to men in home and church.  One never knows how these discussion may end.  We could end up long time enemies.  But I am hoping for something better.

Thanks.

Gengwall,

“There are certainly hormonal and other bio-chemical differences between men and women, as well as significant brain structure and operation differences. So, although I agree that we are equal spiritually, I suggest that we may pursue spirituality quite differently.”

I don’t know about how others think, but I view those as part of physical differences.  And while it is true that our physiology may tend to influence us to pursue spirituality differently, that is not the same thing as saying men and women are spiritually different.  To my knowledge nothing in Scripture infers that men are spiritually different than women.  We are human first and foremost.  As humans we share the same type of spirit – that of humans created in the image of God.

Thanks Don.  🙂

And remember also, that many of the charges of misbehaving were trumpted up frivolous charges.  Not cooking well, I consider a frivolous charge.  Add to that that a woman could, according to a mean husband, a wife could just not cook like his mom and he could fine her on that supposed ‘fact’.

It’s a good thing I wasn’t born in those days.  I’d be in a heap of trouble.  🙂

Cheryl, according to the Mishna man made rules about women and marriage, a husband could also subtract from a woman’s dowry because of various shortcomings or complaints about her,( a portion of a woman’s dowry by the ketubah went to her upon divorce) until there was nothing left in it.  In that way he could then divorce her and leave her with nothing.  Many of the things he could subtract for were: not spinning wool well, not being a good cook, not satisfying him in bed (called ‘making the bed’), and similar.

LOL Don!

The thing that bothers me is the idea that the only thing women need instruction on is how to be proper and good ‘lil women’, cooking, cleaning, nurturing children, responding well to men.  If I thought that is all life was about, I think I beg with God to take me home now.

“I also believe there is much significance in the fact that this concerned believers in Crete. Paul described them as lazy and irresponsible (among other things). It stands to reason that the women there were not minding their homes, so the believing women who were elders were to get these lazy women up to speed socially.”

Excellent point Paula.  You illustrate yet another reason why we cannot just helicopter verses out of the contextual home (which includes the era they were addressing) and interpret them without any clothes on.  Context is always key.

“She plays to her strength, I play to mine and the Lord acts as the conductor to this great orchestra, leading it to accomplish his desires.  Its not without its trials however, and I would admonish any who dare try what we are doing to be forewarned, its not for the faint of heart… “

Great description Mike!  Sounds awesome.  FWIW, it is good to remember that growth and learning is always a struggle and sometimes painful.  But all growth is worth the cost. It is sad that other’s have not seen the blessings as you have.

Dane, I didn’t know that Diane and Matt were speaking against the president elect.  Do you have a thread to point me to, to look at?

It is interesting that they have not considered that as a Christian ministry it is preaching lawlessness to shred one’s government in a directive public fashion.

Good clip! So what Bruce, Grudem and the “role” clan do with the Trinity is the same thing they try to do to women. They want one of a temporal temporary ‘role’ of life to backtrack and define the whole person and the person’s life. Just as they say that because a woman will spend a portion of her life mothering that therefore that is the value of the whole of her life, and she has no other purpose or ‘role’ in life. The temporary role defines her. So, now they say that The Son’s temporary ‘role’ as Messiah, the Christ, defines Him and even back tracks into eternity past and fast forwards into eternity future and erases the rest of His ‘roles’ or authorities, abilities, etc. Pretty crazy. And I would say that the reason they do this is their thirst for earthly male power and dominance. Then there are those who wish to benefit from their social wealth and status and will support this folly. It is just unfortunate that the naive and innocent are following them in their craziness.

I can hardly wait to see it too.

How about a prophetic word that you are going to have to do another printing of this.  🙂

I read the post this morning. It was exceptional.

Bitterness towards men is no different than bitterness towards women or bitterness towards another race.

I noticed that thread coming through also. Some of these extreme supporters of patriarchy/male dominance likely have the same concept that women need to have a certain subservient demeanor towards men or they should be disciplined until they get it.

In my understanding of the OT Covenant, there were three official positions of spiritual leadership for the nation: The Prophet of the era, The Judge of the Nation, and the High Priest. The High Priest and the Judge were equal in authority although operating in different spheres. The Prophet was the highest or most authoritative as that person would be led of God to appoint a High Priest or The Judge of the Nation. Deborah in effect as well as I think two others in history, held the positions of the most authoritative leadership in her time.

Sometimes, people confuse her position with that of the local civil judges. But they were never named in Scriptures, just referred to. It was The Judge of the Nation that was chosen by God and named in Scripture, that assisted the civil judges in cases too difficult for them.

Thanks Cheryl.  It isn’t so much rechecking on this one as it is coming up with a list with specific references one can find for themselves.  I like my old Thayer’s but it’s really difficult to find anything beside being in really small print.  LOL

So, yeah, Don.  What about BDAG.  I’ve got The Source’s reference handy, will be looking online for Liddle & Scott and have the New International Dictionary of NT Theology which must have 20-30 references for me to read through.  🙁  I have some others around here also.

I’m collecting them for Paula’s handbook.

side track …..  Cheryl,

You quoted somewhere what Thayers has to say about the definition of the Greek “n” (often translated as ‘or’ in English).  My Thayer’s is old, 1886 and it doesn’t have the word in it.  What year is the Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon that you found it in, and what page did you find it on.

Sorry to distract, but I’m going through all my research books to see what I can find on it, for resource material.

Gengwall,  nice to see another good soul that likes to do research.  🙂

“I did some further digging and the accented online text is based on NA-26 which does have accents, other punctuation, and upper and lower case. I do not believe the editors of these texts inserted such details at their own discretion.”

Actually, they did.  They thought they were correct in their interpretations and did so with integrity, but the facts are that when the original manuscripts were written in 50’s – 60’s AD, it was in all caps, no accent marks, no punctuation of any sort.  Thus, when those are added in, it is at the discretion of the translators.

Where is the link to order them….. huh huh huh!!!

Don, that is they way I like to see it also. The difference is that we as humans with sin still in our lives, have to work to achieve this kind of unity and only achieve it on occasion. God however, in perfection does not have a struggle at all.

Anyone that wants to start a discussion of this situation and the audio files, can do so at http://equalitycentral.com/forum/index.php

because you have agreed not to publicly discuss these offenses anymore, I don’t want to write my opinion of it here, and to encourage others not to do so also, so that Cheryl can keep her end of the agreement if though Matt and his VP are not keeping it. There are other places one can discuss it.

well said.  Thank you for the closure.  I’m ready to move on with you.  🙂

The current push for hierarchy in the Trinity is a denial of the full divinity of Jesus, and thus anyone who thinks Jesus is less than fully God has “another Jesus”.

That is my concern as well!

Is everyone really this quiet? 🙂

And welcome back Cheryl.

Really that was an acceptable outcome of the meeting. Miracles do not always happen when or how we would like them to happen.  And it surely will take a miracle for them to see things differently.

{Cheryl edit to remove names that would identify a ministry}