tiro3

There are some interesting points that most people miss in 1 Tim. 3. It starts off with pistos ho logos – faithful is the Word. Paul continues with tis episkopE oregO kabos ergon epithumeO – ANYone craving on-noting/supervision/bishop is desiring an ideal work. And then typical to Hebrew thinking his very first requirement is that the person must be a “of-one woman man”. This is a Hebrew colloquialism that means faithful. This information is detailed out in Bruce Flemings book “Familiar Leadership Heresies”. Paul is hammering in that the Word is faithful and there must be faithful people who serve it. And then he continues on to bring up more character qualities of a faithful type person: sober, sane, hospitable, of good behavior, apt to teach, no wine bibbler, etc. These are not qualities that only males can achieve.

Also, the way I read verse 4 is that one is to manage their own household, not themselves. That very generally says to keep your own household orderly. Just like a woman is to manage her household, organize and order it to make daily life easier. Proistemai tinos. Can also be translated “care for, give aid”. See also in Rom. 12:8, 1 Tim. 3:5, 1 Tim. 5:17; 1 Thess. 5:12; Titus 3:8,14. Has been used as one who is a leader, patron, supervisor and director. Some have translated it as “rule” after the bad King James who wanted his authority and rule validated. But really that is stretching it and perverting the true spiritual intent of caring management.

So it appears that the word deacon is considered a male term yet having both masculine and feminine grammar. Phoebe was not called a “deaconess” but a “deacon” and the name is the same as the name for the men. Whatever they were, she too would be.

OK that makes sense. I thought it was simply a term for an activity that had a male ending, but could be used for both men and women.

I looked up “deacon/servant/minister” in Rom. 16:1 in the Complete Biblical Library. It is shown as sing. masculine, diakonon. Same thing in my Concordant Greek Text. To my knowledge it was a word that was not used with masc. or fem. endings.

One of the things that I see prevalent in abusive forums and organizations is that :
1. They “rip at the sheep” who disagree with their pet doctrines, rather than seeking to facilitate respectful dialogue.
2. Their informational websites post numerous articles but restrict comments. This makes them appear strong and in the right.
3. Disagreement is all too often rewarded with major slander and false accusations aimed at invalidating the person who disagreed and thus their opinions.
4. Sometimes, the angst is so great that forum moderators set up posters to make a rule violation and if that doesn’t work they’ll just suspend, ban or delete them for no real reason just to silence their differing opinions. By doing this they can then claim the person was rebellious because they were given so many “violations”.

One of the things I’ve often appreciated about Jewish Rabbi’s is that among themselves they respectfully allow disagreement. Often footnotes in Hebrew “Bibles” give two different interpretations, leaving it up to the reader to choose. The Mishna’s are filled with Gamaliel said thus and Hillel said thus! Thankfully, we don’t need to accept their oral traditions, but nevertheless the respect they gave amongst themselves in that way was a good example.

Instead, what we have are Christian factions that treat each other like they are ready to start a religious war.

“What has helped you to keep a respectful attitude when you are being attacked?”

I compose all my posts in my Word program. Before I copy it into a post I delete any harsh words, criticisms not necessary for the discussion. If I’ve been blasted, I make it a point not to respond to the attack if at all possible (other than perhaps responding, “not true” or some such). I try to start from a positive point of Scripture interpretation and discuss only what pertains to the topic.

What I do not want to do is feed the flames of dissension. Even the smallest food for the flames will keep it burning on. Best to douse it with cold water or non attention.

In addition I’ve heard through the grapevine (and what a long vine it is) that CARM administration has actually forbidden some posters from mentioning Cheryl’s name. If they mention your name or discuss this blog or your posts, they are in jeapardy of being banned. In all my years online I’ve never heard of such a thing. Sounds like the taliban!

aaaah Cheryl’s son is in the building. How cool. 🙂

Ryan wrote: “Also, if it is the vessel that God is concerned about over and above His message, then God should have chosen a man to rebuke Balaam… but He uses his donkey.”

I always loved God’s humor in that.

Don and Cheryl, I think both aspects are applicable. As to which is to be in the forefront, well first one must cut off the sin before the heart can be made tender. 🙂

Thanks for quoting the commentaries. I have Keil and Delitzsch’s also. Good quotes.

BTW Don, a couple people have asked if you knew about the Christian egal discussion forum at http://equalitycentral.com/. Seems you are getting a name for being a Christian scholar with a heart of grace.

so which Friday are you going to be on the LA talk show. Will there be a tape you can share?

Waiting for news………

Hello Deb. Welcome.

Lately I’ve been entertaining the idea that there may be many out there who claim to complementarian views who indeed are more egalitarian. And also, that perhaps there is an area of egalitarian that overlaps quite well with complementarian thinking. I call that being complementary without hierarchy.

Part of the reason I think that is very possible is that the term complementarian was coined by a small group of people in order to make patriarchal views more palatable by reason of the mutuality of the word complementary. Because most people are not aware of the foundation of the word and what positions some have formed “underneath it”, they have identified primarily with the word ‘complementary’. And fact is that true Biblical equality is very complementary in nature at its core.

Terri wrote: #47 ….. The more I read of bloggers like the Baylys and those on the discussion boards at Carm I really can fully appreciate blogs such as this. It seems to me that the accusation of egalitarians having a problem with authority is misplaced. Complimentarians seem to view everything through the lenses of power instead of love.”

I agree except I’d call them patriarchalists. Those who strive to have and hold as much power as possible are generally the ones who have the problems with authority. Patriarchalists such as the ones on CARM regularly teach that women are ONLY required to be of a submissive attitude to their own husbands, their own fathers, and their own pastors. This leaves it acceptable to behave in an unsubmissive manner to ALL the rest of the body of Christ. So, out goes Ephesians 5:21 and a host of other Scriptures about loving the brethren and considering them and their needs above self. Curiously it seems to also allow them in their minds to exercise authority with impunity and a total lack of graciousness, integrity, or fairness.

Perhaps, the new patriarchal belief that the men are to mirror God, that men share in the maleness of God (remember they believe God is male, a convenient belief!) something with God that women in their femaleness do not, gives indirectly an example to patriarchal women to behave capriciously with the authorities they are allowed. After all God does as He Wills and is accountable to no one. The difference of course is that God is Holy and Perfect in Truth and Love.

Hi Martin.

I’ve a book about brain differences between the sexes. Unfortunately I don’t remember the name. If I can come across it I’ll post it.

This is very true Paula. In fact I’ve been doing some research on that myself.

Pretty funny. 🙂

One of my favorite jokes is based on scientific fact. If a man gets hit on the head in the area of his speech center, he has a 50/50 chance of losing his ability of speech altogether. Men’s brains are very compartmentalized.

If a woman gets hit on the head in the area of speech, the other half of her brain takes over, because the two hemispheres of a woman’s brain are interconnected in ways men’s brains are not.

This is one reason why all the people who think God wants women to be silent are so very wrong. 🙂 hehe

In addition, I always find it interesting that the proponents of male dominance want equal time to explain and qualify their beliefs but refuse to give such to those who oppose their stance.

This is where the wisdom comes because we need to determine whether to answer the fool or not. If we answer a fool in his wisdom or rather his folly, we become equal to him and we are told not to do that. However verse 5 tells us emphatically that we are to answer him. The second type of answer is not the one that is equal to the fool’s own folly (verse 4) but it is a real answer, one that will put him in his place and not allow him to think that his stupidity is truth.

That was very good. The point of which was emphatic also helped. Our English misses so much. I also appreciated the na-na-na-bo-bo. LOL Kids do teach us a lot and that without even trying. 🙂

Sounds like that would be the gist of it. I wonder how it looks in the original Hebrew. Must be some unusual word usage going on there.

🙂

1 As snow in summer and rain in harvest,
So honor is not fitting for a fool.
2 Like a flitting sparrow, like a flying swallow,
So a curse without cause shall not alight.
3 A whip for the horse,
A bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the fool’s back.
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

verses 4-5 are interesting. 🙂

I agree not to answer a mocker, lest you get pulled and pushed into the trail way they are baiting one with. Good Scriptures. Sometimes, it can be very difficult not to say something. But I’ve found that the best thing to do is to restart or continue on the discussion train one was already on and just refuse to be side tracked.

just saw some of the conversation on Bayly Blog. Having been involved in online conversations with comp/patri/hierarchalists, for many years, I’ve learned that they often, very often, resort to character assassinations and petty slanders in order to detract from the fact that they cannot refute well researched Biblical discussion that counters their traditional stances.

One of the most important things I’ve grown to understand is not to get personal with them no matter how much they bait. Reveal little to nothing of your own personal life there, because it will only be twisted and criticized to their advantage (they think). Stick to Scriptural discussion with the utmost politeness as much as possible.

When they don’t want to actually discuss the issues, they step back and sic their pets on you. The pet gets freedom to say the things they know would be way out of line for them to say, thus they still look good. And the pet thinks she/he is getting special privileges. Its a sad sad picture for everyone. I’ve seen good Christians completely changed into cynical, raging bulls barely able to speak honestly or kindly anymore, and completely unable to think independently of their new party line.

There are many places I don’t post anymore because of these things.

Coolness! And many blessings. Now I’m hitting the sack. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Just in explanation. I’ve long been a lurker , following Cheryl’s conversations, here on CARM while I was there, and around. 🙂

Among gender hierarchalists, hard comps, patriarchalists and the like, the same disrespect, lack of humility, unsubmissive attitudes abound in the online forums. And skirting the issues in any way possible is also one of their patterns. CBMW just does not allow discussion. Perhaps smart since they likely would have a great deal of trouble with honest communication with those who question their doctrines.

I am always thankful to find places where respectful discussion is open to all from both sides of an issue. for that reason I would like to invite those who are looking for simple, honest and thoughtful discussion to try out the equality central discussion board as well. Not to distract from here, just a place in addition to.

http://equalitycentral.com/forum/

Hopefully, this does not offend our precious jewel Cheryl, for whom I am dearly greatfull for her research and gracious conversation.